Mikael
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| Is it yet possible to create your OWN SET of levels in a mapscreen?? Are there sprites for a map overworld, and can I somehow place icons for overworld levels, underworld, underwater, towers & castles in the order I want them? Aswell as choosing which world in which order, what music, what scenery etc.. |
Mikael
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That's so sad because having that completed would pretty much be the perfect editor. Can't some of these genius hackers get cracking on it?? It's a big project but I hope to be able to make my own map worlds in a not too distant future.
In the meantime I'll just use the first level as a warpzone to other worlds I want to use instead. My problem is that I want the mapscreen icon for respective level to match that level's environment. For ex, underground levels are displayed as a *bridge* but maybe I don't necessarily want to have underground levels in a particular world, or I want to place the bridge icon at another stage.
There's also scenery in the overworld map like trees, water, elevations. Even if not that stuff would be possible to change, at least give it a try with the level icons you guys!!
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Mikael
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"I looked at the world map data once, it's not as easy as you make it sound. The terrain and scenery is 3D; the path data is somewhere inside the overlay files.
Possible? Yes. Feasible for now? No."
I understand but can't you try and just replace some stuff, like exchanging the sprite of a tower for a castle or something. Just being able to switch objects around would be satisfying.
BTW I can't express enough appreciation for how far you've come with the hacking of the game anyway. Amazing job Treeki, and anybody else involved. You deserve standing ovations from thousands of Mario fans! |
Mikael
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I don't know how to reply to a certain post so I just quote.
"It's not that easy, I was messing around with the path data in a debugger once. The most I managed to do was switch around a few path destinations, and I couldn't figure out how to edit it in the ROM."
I see, but that sounds like the first step. Eventually you geniuses will figure it out. I can only request it and bring the project to your mind. I suppose we will need a completely new tool in the editor to handle the overworld map.
"Why don't you do it yourself?"
I'm a level builder not a programmer. I'm skilled with gameplay design. |
Mikael
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Originally posted by gridatttack
Originally posted by Mikael
I don't know how to reply to a certain post so I just quote.
"It's not that easy, I was messing around with the path data in a debugger once. The most I managed to do was switch around a few path destinations, and I couldn't figure out how to edit it in the ROM."
I see, but that sounds like the first step. Eventually you geniuses will figure it out. I can only request it and bring the project to your mind. I suppose we will need a completely new tool in the editor to handle the overworld map.
"Why don't you do it yourself?"
I'm a level builder not a programmer. I'm skilled with gameplay design.
Its at the top of every post. In the line where posted on mm/dd/yy. At the right corner there is the option to quote and other things.
Thank you! |
Mikael
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Originally posted by Garmichael
I imagine that the terrain for the overworld map is one solid mesh 3d object. In other words, to edit the terrain, you would have to have sculpt it yourself bit by bit, instead of building one out of tiles. So, even if there was the capability to export and import your own terrain, you, personally, would still need to know how to model in 3d and map it for textures in order to actually edit the terrain. Because of this, you cant really rely on 'other geniuses' to do all the hard stuff for you so you can be just a 'designer'
Okay since I'm not the expert I'm not aware of how it being 3D becomes a problem, with all due respect. You could make a 2D model where I, or anyone else who is interested in this aswell, as a designer operates and then the editor program translates the work I've done into 3D in the ROM. Maybe that requires a different knowledge than the one you possess as a hacker? I just think it's pity you won't complete the project with NSMB DS, just moving on with the Wii version, and not give the mapscreen a go. Who else is motivated to finish the whole game hacking?
I think you come from a point of view where no operating system is considered as relevant. I do think it's relevant. For example, all the sprites should be properly filed in archives and not just listed. Enemy sprites be sorted in one map, blocks in another etc. The editor should be practical and efficient for a person who is not a programmer to use. There could be 10-yr old kids interested in making Mario levels. If I could organize all the items, objects, sprites in my own map system I could build my game in a much more efficient way. That is the point of view I'm coming from. If you don't know how to model with 3D textures and so forth, then say that and I understand there's not going to be an overworld editor.
So, as much respect as I have of your competence, if the editor was more practical and handy and user-friendly, people who are solely interested in game design and not programming could get themselves more seriously involved in the game. There's a difference in being a piano builder and a piano player. |
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Originally posted by Treeki
Yeah, but if someone figures it out it won't be me.
I'm not working on NSMB DS any more. My main focus is NSMB Wii now - ironically, it's actually easier to hack the maps in NSMB Wii than in NSMB DS.
I read what you say Treeki but it's a shame that you don't finish the hacking of this game that you started (which isn't to say much since the editor is enough brilliant already). Let's say you deal with the Wii game and later return to do the mapscreen for NSMB DS. Then it would be too late cuz the DS version is outdated by then. Just saying my man. |
Mikael
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Okay Garmichael take it easy. Lol, gee and I tried to be polite here. When I called myself level designer I wasn't referring to myself as a hacker. I'm a lazy fucker, with a certain ambition to create challenging levels, and most people work this way. Obviously you hackers are spending too much time with the computers and too little time with other people, learning social codes rather than data codes or what not. I'm not gonna get myself involved into this obsession now. I have my own goals what I want to accomplish. But I did put forward a question, aswell as a request.
"And trust me, the 'I want to see the sprites graphics instead of a blue box' idea has been mentioned quite a few times, and each time, there's a response to it."
Then it's strange that you haven't attended to that problem, yet it's the 5.1 update now. I don't care if other people have mentioned the same idea. You don't address the issue here Garmichael, but you did with the 3D issue. In fact you had no problem with providing me with a titanic rant concerning it, that I naturally can't make out. And that's my problem; you're into the hacking but you can't reform your hacking into something more practical.
"There is always a certain amount of scripting to be done, a certain amount of variable tweekage, and a certain amount of technical do's and dont's that you need to be aware of to make a solid level that will actually run well within the game. While there are some tricky aspects to this editor, its one of the easiest to use editors I have ever used.
As a designer, you need to get over your mental block that refuses to let you get your hands dirty. Anything worth doing is worth learning to do. "
And that is life. I'm not stupid mate. But it doesn't work as an excuse for not developing a decent operative system. Such as making an archive for the sprites. If you can code the sprites you can sort them. Why do you argue about this? Why making things hard on yourself? |
Mikael
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Some simple requests here then, and it's all about convenience & efficiency;
An easier and quicker way to get access to the sprites & objects, to have them properly sorted in files. Being able to add/remove my own files in a flexible system with a set of sprites/objects in them, and I can always go and fetch a new sprite if I removed one from my file. As for now there are only 3 files with objects for instance, where the 3rd file has parts of the fortress scattered around. There should be a way to organize your own files and clean this braindead mess up.
Being able to save sprites with a specific data written in them, separated from other sprites with the same number but different data. For example, I could make my own map and label it "koopa troopas" and have normal koopas and paratroopas in there with all colors, aswell as a bunch of green koopa paratroopas that all have the specific data written in them already; green koopa paratroopa A flies horizontal, green koopa paratroopa B flies vertical. And I don't have to adjust their programming for each example because it's already been done and archived. Just open your own file, and drag your pre-designed sprite where you want it. Not just easier way of editing, viciously constructive!
Hotkeys, shortcuts to open menues
Being able to use all possible tilesets in the same area (maybe that is a difficulty, I'll say it anyway)
Resize areas. Decide length and height in the levels.
Add/remove areas from a level. Some levels have 2 possible areas, some have 3. Is it possible to control this?
(Sorry if I come off as ignorant) |
Mikael
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| Alright Dialga, just to answer the one with hotkeys, the point with it is to work faster. I want to use my mouse AND keyboard when operating. Convenience. Why fly the mouse pointer across the screen here and there to go into windows and so forth. Minimize wasted time with hotkeys. |
Mikael
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"We need to figure out how the maps work before we can edit them..."
I thought I said I wasn't stupid. You fellas, as bright as you are and I respect that, are too busy with your jibberish nerd hacking though you forget to look at the simplicity of efficiency in terms of constructive work. And I'm not talking about the 3D models here now because I'm aware you're not capable to deal with them and why thanks to Garmichael. You don't have to be proud of how you love to deal with the complexity of game hacking. You just got to get rational. Being rude with me is just a sign of lack of social experience.
Q: Is it yet possible to adjust the map overworld?
A: No, there aren't even any programs that make it easy to even LET you model your own object for a commercial NDS rom. Us hackers are having difficulty getting NDS format 3D objects into an editable mode.
Ok fellas thanks for answering my question! You can't blame me for asking it since the map overworld is a crucial part of the NSMB game.  |
Mikael
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More functions rather than userfriendly? Well the Wii version of NSMB is going to be HUGE so, to learn all the parts of that game would be exhausting ESPECIALLY if the editor for that one becomes ungainly.
It should be an absolute no-brainer to place an ordinary enemy in a level at this point, after so many editor updates, not a damn project "Ok let's see, first I need to look up the sprite, which number OH THERE... next, what sprite data is there I want to use..." and so forth, and repeat this wasted househould job when it could simply be preset and allow kids to edit by themselves quicker. But the hackers got too blowned up balls and they're about to explode, and they consider efficiency to be "magic".
Mario is just a game and not worth a third of my life, got other things to spend time on too you know, and this comes from a guy who was almost bullied at school for being a Mario fan. Sure, I can learn alot of things and prepared to do the research that is required, but I'm simply not going to waste that amount time and energy on repeadetly household work. The copy/paste function in the latest updates is a big, crucial success. |
Mikael
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Originally posted by dirbaio
wow. what a big discussion.
For now, i can tell that 3d models arent editable. There are tools out there that barely let you view DS's 3D models, sometimes with bad textures and sometimes with everything bad. Right now nobody knows fully the format of ds's 3d models, that's why the guy that is developing the model viewer is having so much trouble. I doubt i could implement something like a 3d model importer / exporter. Maybe in the far future, when the models are better known (but i doubt it, as there havent been any advances on them lately)
What can be changed probably, and i'm working on it right now (you can see it in the editor development thread) is editing the textures of 3d models. That way you would be able to change a grassland world map into a forest world map for example, but not changing the paths or the shape. sorry.
I know it is frustrating but 3d stuff is hard to deal with, specially if you have no specifications on the format youre working with.
I hope i made everything clear here.
You did! Brilliant Dirbaio! And keep up that work, I had a hunch the situation looked like this in the first place. Are you saying there's a possibility YOU can learn how to handle the 3D Models and there's no necessarity to get somebody else involved in it? Then it might be a question of time. (If I could boost that research for you I would)
To sum up what I've read here alone, dirbaio knows how to switch the scenery theme of a map overworld and Treeki knows how to change path directions on it. Don't be doubtful or sorry about this as it is great progress. |
Mikael
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I get it Treeki.
"If you really want to see it improve, then insulting us and going on about how we have "too blowned up balls" won't make us do whatever you want. Instead, be polite, think of interface suggestions that would make it better and post them in the stickied Editor Development thread."
But I was polite, I said "gee I tried to be polite here" but Garmichael addressed me with a ballistic speech. Lol. I said you deserved standing ovations. Why is it that you misinterpret things in a negative way and fail to see the positive tone I'm trying to bring? Don't tell me that I'm "insulting" you when I've done the opposite! Like I said, lack of social codes here.
As for the development thread, go check on it Treeki before you tell me what I've already done. And lay off the personal tone. There's no NEED for it, as you said yourself. |
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| And how can I expect too much when I get to read here you are already working on what I requested? You make no sense. |
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Originally posted by dirbaio
well, Treeki doesnt know fully how to change paths neither.
Paths consist in some table somewhere, and a NSBCA (3d animation) file that contains all the animations Mario does whan travelling from one point to another. Its quite useless because most of the time it only walks but for example in world 3 it jumps from the beach to the land.
This is the bad thing: NSBCA files are totally (or nearly) unknown.
What do you mean though. Are you saying the kind of files you need to comprehend are unknown to just YOU, or are they unknown to most/all hackers? And are you saying it's a bad thing it's unknown because you can't learn how to read them? You need more tools and more advanced programs to interpret NSBCA? And finding these programs, purchase them, handle them, is a "maybe"?
The bad things in itself isn't what obstacle you have ahead, right. |
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Originally posted by Treeki
Nintendo uses their own custom formats for everything. There are some formats (like NSMB's levels and tilesets) which are only used in one game - and others (like SDAT, NSBMD, etc) which are used in many Nintendo-developed games.
The issue is that there isn't any documentation available. For some formats, people have figured them out and documented them. Others are poorly documented (like NSBMD, the model format) - or even totally unknown.
You make it sound easy, when in reality, it's not. I just opened the NSBCA file for world 1 in a hex editor and took a screenshot: http://treeki.shacknet.nu/bca_hex.png - all this data means something to the game, but we know nothing about how it's laid out or how it works. And due to its nature, 3D stuff is far harder to both understand and edit than 2D.
You can't "purchase a program" which can do it - Nintendo's private devkit is the only thing that can create and edit NSBCA files, and we don't have that. And we can't legally distribute anything from it (or even obtain it without being a developer) which makes using it for ROM hacking purposes pointless.
I see. Thanks for that understandable, reasonable explanation.
I suppose you are keeping pace with whatever exclusively new technology there is in hacking industry. |
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One question though.
How is it that the Wii game seems easier to comprehend to you? These are both Nintendo products. This is what confuses me. |
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Originally posted by Treeki
NSMB Wii uses the same model/sound/etc formats as games like Brawl which have been hacked to death, so we can build upon their documentation. The game itself is also built differently.
For example, adding/removing areas from levels is unfeasible in NSMB DS because the level and area numbers are all hardcoded into the game binary. Adding completely new levels would be even worse.
In NSMBWii, adding/removing areas is as simple as modifying the level file (4 is the max). Adding new levels just involves changing the level number you enter from the world map - the game is full of unused slots in every world.
I just found my old docs about the map data in NSMB DS - it's not simple at all. The main map model (containing the scenery/terrain/etc) is in the w#.nsbmd files. The file containing Mario's movement for each path is in the w#_move.nsbca files. These two are the easier bits, since they can eventually be modified once we find out the formats.
The harder bit is the actual path layout itself - it's all embedded into the compressed overlay files (ID 18) along with the world map code. It cannot be easily modified at all - these files contain both code and data, so you can't change the size of these files without horribly breaking the game. Guess what makes it even better? Due to the way it's structured, the data will be different in each game region.
tl;dr: Don't expect fully hackable world maps to be possible for a long, long time (if ever).
Well that does make sense (mostly) but I seem to get different answers and different stories about why you can't make the overworld map everytime I ask, I must say. According to you, the problem isn't the 3D hacking and modeling. The problem is now that the codes are embedded in such a way that you can't touch them, that separates NSMB DS from other products.
Is that because there is not yet a technology developed to be able to do that (Nintendo's private devkit is the only thing that can create and edit NSBCA files)? Or is the situation as such, that NSMB DS applies NSBCA files that NSMBWii somehow doesn't and that is the only reason you can hack the Wii version more? Is there a certain WAY of programming 3D? Are you able to program the overworlds in the Wii version or not? |
Mikael
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So you're saying that you have obstacles with the programming language of the DS at this point because there's not enough gathered documentation on it. Roger.
"Eventually, we'll probably be able to figure out how to edit the NSBMD/NSBCA files which contain the 3D data - but we don't have a way to expand the code files. "
Like I said, eventually you geniuses will figure it out. I don't understand what it means with expanding the code files though. See, now there's ANOTHER new answer! So tell me then, what does it mean with *expanding* them and how do you lack a way of it? |
