Jul -- General Chat: ELECTION DAY

Xkeeper

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Posted on 11-05-08 10:09:02 PM

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Not only that, but:

- The best way to do it would be to increase gun control, i.e. make it harder for people with any known criminal past to get them, as well as reasonable forced waiting periods
- Outright abolishing the 2nd Amendment would be the fastest way to killing your political party ever, and the next one in would undo that job and instantly gain a ton of favoritism for it

Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing more of that first one, simply because far, far too many fucking loonies have been showing up in news stories after having shot people for something as pathetic as stealing a lawn sign.

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CarCat

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Posted on 11-05-08 10:15:23 PM

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Using the logic "because a sign is up, everyone will follow it" isn't reliable. Banning guns isn't going to stop criminals from getting them in other ways, and I think Xkeeper's post really presents a fix to this. Controlling use/sale is likely the best way to deal with it.

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Hiryuu

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Posted on 11-05-08 10:16:09 PM (last edited by Fate Testarossa at 11-05-08 07:16 PM)

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No one really cares about the waiting periods.

Problem is, Obama's 2nd Amendment record and his laws in Illinois (I should know since I lived there 21 years) is a pretty atrocious history in accordance to being anywhere close to acceptable for people who want to own a gun for protection, hunting, etc. There is a gun ban in Chicago he made. It's nowhere close to working well.

The fact is that you vote for one thing but if you don't look at the underlying truths to it, you're also voting in a plethora of other things because of the nice thing call 'legal interpretation'. It's sort of like how lotteries got passed here in Arkansas with a good opposition to it. Yes, that gives you lotteries, but that also paves the way in for casinos and things of that nature with the way the laws are written here and those are thing the uneducated don't know.

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CarCat

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Posted on 11-05-08 10:20:25 PM (last edited by CarCat at 11-05-08 07:21 PM)

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Originally posted by Fate Testarossa
No one really cares about the waiting periods.

Problem is, Obama's 2nd Amendment record and his laws in Illinois (I should know since I lived there 21 years) is a pretty atrocious history in accordance to being anywhere close to acceptable for people who want to own a gun for protection, hunting, etc. There is a gun ban in Chicago he made. It's nowhere close to working well.

The fact is that you vote for one thing but if you don't look at the underlying truths to it, you're also voting in a plethora of other things because of the nice thing call 'legal interpretation'. It's sort of like how lotteries got passed here in Arkansas with a good opposition to it. Yes, that gives you lotteries, but that also paves the way in for casinos and things of that nature with the way the laws are written here and those are thing the uneducated don't know.

Experience, or just an unbiased opinion, is imperative if you want to amend the Constitution. After all, you are amending the entire constitution.

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Xenesis

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Posted on 11-05-08 10:21:51 PM

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I can't see gun control working in America until the culture of gun ownership in America changes first, anyhow.

Xkeeper

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Posted on 11-05-08 10:25:35 PM

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Originally posted by Xenesis
I can't see gun control working in America until the culture of gun ownership in America changes first, anyhow.

Pretty much. The overwhelming hillbilly stigma that everybody should use guns as self defense is stupid.

I recall reading somewhere that America had pretty much the highest gun-related death rate. Unfortunately, the source is long lost.

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Hiryuu

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Posted on 11-06-08 07:12:33 PM

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Originally posted by Xkeeper
...The overwhelming hillbilly stigma that everybody should use guns as self defense is stupid. ...

Like you would be able to defend yourself without one if it came down to it in this day and age?

We aren't at Stardate 4760.1 yet. Even then with that peace or whatever they had their phasers.

This goes into human psychology and philosophy and I doubt highly that it gets changed in this lifetime or several in this instance. I don't think people like picking up guns to kill one another if they have their morals straight...but if you think that people are 100% like you in terms of the way you think for 'morals'...hah...

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Xkeeper

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Posted on 11-06-08 07:15:15 PM

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Like you would be able to defend yourself without one if it came down to it in this day and age?

I am not worried about defending myself (as I don't have a gun regardless, and have no plans to ever own one; I have fired a few for sport, though).

This goes into human psychology and philosophy and I doubt highly that it gets changed in this lifetime or several in this instance. I don't think people like picking up guns to kill one another if they have their morals straight...but if you think that people are 100% like you in terms of the way you think for 'morals'...hah...

Unfortunately, most people don't have morals; and even then, there are many, many ways to inhibit those morals, from anger, to intoxication... and the full list is much longer than that.

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Hiryuu

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Posted on 11-06-08 07:18:40 PM

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Originally posted by Xkeeper
Like you would be able to defend yourself without one if it came down to it in this day and age?

I am not worried about defending myself (as I don't have a gun regardless, and have no plans to ever own one; I have fired a few for sport, though).

Na na na...you're not playing along here. I'm saying what would happen if you're in this situation. You can't honestly tell me that this does not have a chance of happening in your life. Now I'm not going to dictate your life's self-worth or whatever but I would think you'd want something to make sure you didn't bite the big one.

But let's say you got on in life a little ways, had a family and were, once again, in the same predicament with more people involved. Family, friends, people you care for, whatever.

Now would you want guns not being an option in this situation?

I don't own a gun either, yet, but if it came down to the point of me thinking I should I wouldn't be averse to picking one up...especially if it came to protecting more people than myself. I'm not thinking about this for just myself when I'm going and voting about these things.

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Xkeeper

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Posted on 11-06-08 07:26:46 PM

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Originally posted by Fate Testarossa
Na na na...you're not playing along here. I'm saying what would happen if you're in this situation. You can't honestly tell me that this does not have a chance of happening in your life. Now I'm not going to dictate your life's self-worth or whatever but I would think you'd want something to make sure you didn't bite the big one.

I'm not in this situation. I'm not going to be in this situation, either -- I'm not going to have a gun, nor the option of using it. What's your point?

But let's say you got on in life a little ways, had a family and were, once again, in the same predicament with more people involved. Family, friends, people you care for, whatever.

Now would you want guns not being an option in this situation?

I would still be completely for no guns. Is it that hard of an ideal to understand?

I don't own a gun either, yet, but if it came down to the point of me thinking I should I wouldn't be averse to picking one up...

And I would.

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Hiryuu

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Posted on 11-06-08 07:58:53 PM

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So basically, if it came down to family protection you'd be 'oh well'?

Thanks for clearing that up.

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Xkeeper

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Posted on 11-06-08 08:01:20 PM

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I wouldn't resort to guns.

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Hiryuu

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Posted on 11-06-08 08:16:02 PM

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Originally posted by Xkeeper
I wouldn't resort to guns.

And if they have one? You think they care about what you would or wouldn't resort to?

Again...doesn't really matter if laws are enacted against them or not, people are going to still get their hands on them.

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Posted on 11-06-08 08:17:38 PM

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Originally posted by Fate Testarossa
Like you would be able to defend yourself without one if it came down to it in this day and age?

As somebody who took Karate for 7 years, I think I'm in position to say that guns are in no way needed for self-defense. The only real problem would be when somebody pulls a gun on me at a distance, but another gun wouldn't exactly make the problem go away, now, would it?

Xkeeper

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Posted on 11-06-08 08:22:14 PM

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Originally posted by Fate Testarossa
Originally posted by Xkeeper
I wouldn't resort to guns.

And if they have one? You think they care about what you would or wouldn't resort to?

Again...doesn't really matter if laws are enacted against them or not, people are going to still get their hands on them.

And if a terrorist gets a hold of a nuke, we should all get nukes so we can practice self-defense.

No.

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Hiryuu

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Posted on 11-06-08 08:24:55 PM

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Originally posted by The Red Snifit
...As somebody who took Karate for 7 years...

Before you even go there, been there but not for that amount of time and I can tell you that the more you train yourself, the more you should honestly realize the limits of the body that you're in.

If you refuse to acknowledge that fact, it will be fatal. You've already pretty much told me this by 'but if guns are pulled at a distance' for starters.

Karate or any form of physical self-defense is not a bad thing to have at all and it's another thing I would say to have when it comes down to it...but you aren't stopping a bullet with your body that well and if you're in a bad position at any moment, a gunner is going to have a better chance at taking you down than you at disarming him.

This also comes at a price, once again, at protecting others.

Not only that...but gangs don't go in single people.

Guys, I know what you're trying to say here. I don't condone using guns either and I believe that you should never have to pick one up in your life if it ever comes down to it. But we're barely out of the jungle when it comes to human beings in terms of thoughts of other people. If we were past this or we never had this issue there would never be such a problem as 'guns used to murder people'.

That is the reality that you people here are attempting to evade. It's just like taking care of yourself, a car, anything really. They're called preventive measure - preventive maintainence...because you have been given the information that certain, harming, things are capable of happening at any point in time and taking such measures to help yourself will more than wholly benefit you in the long run.

As for another gun making the problem go away...yea, it would. A .357 magnum bullet hole through the head of an otherwise successful assailant just saved your ass as well as those that may have also been targeted.

It's a whole catch-22, damned if you do - damned if you don't. It's necessary and wouldn't want to be without the option but I don't want to use them either. If we were a better race of humans, this argument wouldn't even be necessary in the slightest.

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Posted on 11-07-08 03:01:07 AM

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Originally posted by Fate Testarossa
As for another gun making the problem go away...yea, it would. A .357 magnum bullet hole through the head of an otherwise successful assailant just saved your ass as well as those that may have also been targeted.

Sorry, but I must disagree here. It's not a matter of the gun not being able to stop the guy, but that, in most situations, you'd not be able to draw the gun quickly enough to do so flawlessly. Chances are, you're not expecting the guy to pull a gun, he'd have one out before you did, and he may shoot you as soon as he sees you have one, before you can do anything; the gun probably lessens your chance of survival. You might be able to get into a stand-off, but chances are he's in the better position, or you could just wind up shooting eachother simultaneously. None of these make the problem go away.

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Posted on 11-07-08 03:32:07 AM

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Originally posted by Obama
I don't think that we can get that done. But what we can do is to provide just some common-sense enforcement. The efforts by law enforcement to obtain the information required to trace back guns that have been used in crimes to unscrupulous gun dealers. As president, I intend to make it happen. We essentially have two realities, when it comes to guns, in this country. You've got the tradition of lawful gun ownership. It is very important for many Americans to be able to hunt, fish, take their kids out, teach them how to shoot. Then you've got the reality of 34 Chicago public school students who get shot down on the streets of Chicago. We can reconcile those two realities by making sure the Second Amendment is respected and that people are able to lawfully own guns, but that we also start cracking down on the kinds of abuses of firearms that we see on the streets.

So uh.. Are you saying he's taking away all our guns? I'm confused.

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Posted on 11-07-08 03:37:32 AM (last edited by Peardian at 11-07-08 12:38 AM)

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TheGreatGuy's right. If someone threatens you with a gun, they're not going to be polite enough to let you pull yours out or even point it if you have it. If they see you reach for something, they're stop you, most likely with a bullet.

I understand where Hiryuu is coming from, but I guess sometimes the best defense is no offense. True, they'll have a gun and you won't, but your chances of living are better if you don't try to attack them back.

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