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04-21-22 11:01:36 AM
Jul - General Chat - New Homeschooling Decision in California New poll - New thread - New reply
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Posted on 03-08-08 09:31:13 PM Link | Quote
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A California appeals court ruling clamping down on homeschooling by parents without teaching credentials sent shock waves across the state this week, leaving an estimated 166,000 children as possible truants and their parents at risk of prosecution.

The homeschooling movement never saw the case coming.

"At first, there was a sense of, 'No way,' " said homeschool parent Loren Mavromati, a resident of Redondo Beach (Los Angeles County) who is active with a homeschool association. "Then there was a little bit of fear. I think it has moved now into indignation."

The ruling arose from a child welfare dispute between the Los Angeles County Department of Children and Family Services and Philip and Mary Long of Lynwood, who have been homeschooling their eight children. Mary Long is their teacher, but holds no teaching credential.

The parents said they also enrolled their children in Sunland Christian School, a private religious academy in Sylmar (Los Angeles County), which considers the Long children part of its independent study program and visits the home about four times a year.

The Second District Court of Appeal ruled that California law requires parents to send their children to full-time public or private schools or have them taught by credentialed tutors at home.

Some homeschoolers are affiliated with private or charter schools, like the Longs, but others fly under the radar completely. Many homeschooling families avoid truancy laws by registering with the state as a private school and then enroll only their own children.

Yet the appeals court said state law has been clear since at least 1953, when another appellate court rejected a challenge by homeschooling parents to California's compulsory education statutes. Those statutes require children ages 6 to 18 to attend a full-time day school, either public or private, or to be instructed by a tutor who holds a state credential for the child's grade level.

"California courts have held that ... parents do not have a constitutional right to homeschool their children," Justice H. Walter Croskey said in the 3-0 ruling issued on Feb. 28. "Parents have a legal duty to see to their children's schooling under the provisions of these laws."

Parents can be criminally prosecuted for failing to comply, Croskey said.

"A primary purpose of the educational system is to train school children in good citizenship, patriotism and loyalty to the state and the nation as a means of protecting the public welfare," the judge wrote, quoting from a 1961 case on a similar issue.
Thoughts?

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[Posted by IIMarckus]
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Posted on 03-08-08 09:39:33 PM Link | Quote

"A primary purpose of the educational system is to train school children in good citizenship, patriotism and loyalty to the state and the nation as a means of protecting the public welfare," the judge wrote, quoting from a 1961 case on a similar issue.

I don't consider myself a crazy paranoid, but this is kind of a scary-sounding statement...

More on topic, I think there should be a right for parents to homeschool their children, but I am glad myself that I'm not homeschooled...

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Posted on 03-08-08 10:17:57 PM Link | Quote
Originally posted by Imajin
"A primary purpose of the educational system is to train school children in good citizenship, patriotism and loyalty to the state and the nation as a means of protecting the public welfare," the judge wrote, quoting from a 1961 case on a similar issue.

I don't consider myself a crazy paranoid, but this is kind of a scary-sounding statement...

No kidding. "OMG, making us say the pledge of allegiance in elementary school... it all makes since now! The primary purpose of the educational system isn't education at all!"

Seriously, since when has the main goal of education been to train children in loyalty to the state? Usually when I think education, first thing that comes to my mind is LEARNING, not patriotism. What, are they going to try and turn this into a "OMG u is homeskooled, dat meens U IS TERRORIST!!!!" thing?
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Posted on 03-08-08 10:21:37 PM Link | Quote
Horseshit. This is going to ruin a lot of kids who are stuck going to 300-population schools that are so horrible that you are forced in to a grade 9 class when you're in grade 11, a class that you've already taken the grade 10 version of the course for.

Yes, guess who had a good experience with schooling!

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Posted on 03-08-08 10:21:46 PM Link | Quote
My thoughts: OSHI-

Hopefully this doesn't spread to BC

If so...

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Posted on 03-08-08 10:29:47 PM Link | Quote
My first reaction to this was also HORSE SHI-!

I was actually home schooled for 2 years and I gotta' say it wasn't too bad. The only reason I was home schooled anyway was because I wasn't being educated at the school I was attending. They just kept passing me through the grades without caring what I learned. Eventually my mom caught on and pulled me out. Within two years, I was ahead of my old class.

Apparently 3/4 of my old class failed their entrance exams trying to get into the local private high schools... and I'm here in one that's teaching me using college courses.

All in all, this is utter BS... Home schooling saved my ass.

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Posted on 03-08-08 11:18:46 PM Link | Quote

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I would probably be dead due to the antagonistic reaction of the local high school gangs to free thinkers like myself, so I generally dislike this--

though it may only effect the 'wacky' homeschools which don't involve, say, visiting a teacher weekly. If so, then I really think it's meaningless, because those ones are inferior to the other kind anyway.

Still, I think the basis of the decision is garbage and should hopefully be overturned.

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Posted on 03-09-08 10:00:07 PM Link | Quote
I wouldn't have nearly as much of a problem with this if the public schooling in this country wasn't complete and utter bull-fucking-shit.

Hey, we have about 2500 students in this built-for-1250 school, and NCLB says we have to give you only content on the test, so memorize this and don't worry about anything else! Hope you don't mind.


"A primary purpose of the educational system is to train school children in good citizenship, patriotism and loyalty to the state and the nation as a means of protecting the public welfare," the judge wrote, quoting from a 1961 case on a similar issue.
The fact there is no mention of knowledge in this is baffling. This judge needs to be booted, and now.

I don't (well, didn't) go to school to become a flag-waving patriotic hillbilly; I went to learn.

This is just one bumbling idiot's word, but it accurately (and sadly) reflects the state of things in this country.

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Posted on 03-11-08 12:00:35 PM Link | Quote
Huh. Do they ever think what's the best for the one who is learning, rather than who is teaching?


Many homeschooling families avoid truancy laws by registering with the state as a private school and then enroll only their own children.

I'm not sure what this means. Anyone explain?
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Posted on 03-11-08 01:22:33 PM (last edited by Shion at 03-11-08 10:24 AM) Link | Quote
Originally posted by Xkeeper

"A primary purpose of the educational system is to train school children in good citizenship, patriotism and loyalty to the state and the nation as a means of protecting the public welfare," the judge wrote, quoting from a 1961 case on a similar issue.
The fact there is no mention of knowledge in this is baffling...


Not really...since George Carlin's all over this with: 'All they want are OBEDIENT WORKERS...If you're pre-born, you're fine, if you're pre-schooled YOU'RE FUCKED...but once you reach military age they just looove to help you don't they?'.

I'm thinking he's a raging Democrat but I'm not sure.


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Posted on 03-13-08 02:10:09 AM Link | Quote
Originally posted by Pandaren
Huh. Do they ever think what's the best for the one who is learning, rather than who is teaching?


Many homeschooling families avoid truancy laws by registering with the state as a private school and then enroll only their own children.

I'm not sure what this means. Anyone explain?
Just what it says, basically: since some states count you truant if you're not "in school" and don't make allowances for homeschooling, some will register themselves as a private school so that the kids won't be breaking the law. Some states are stricter than others in this regard.

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[Posted by IIMarckus]
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Posted on 03-13-08 02:27:18 AM Link | Quote
It's a fairly safe assumption that for every one child raised properly via homeschooling, there would be 3 or more that were done improperly.

I mean, seriously. Is it that bad to have to have the child be at least tutored by someone with credentials?
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Posted on 03-13-08 02:57:47 AM Link | Quote
Originally posted by Skreeny
It's a fairly safe assumption that for every one child raised properly via homeschooling, there would be 3 or more that were done improperly.
I disagree. But then again, this does somewhat depend on what one considers an "improper" education.

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[Posted by IIMarckus]
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Posted on 03-13-08 06:09:53 PM Link | Quote
That does suck but I do agree also that the child should at least have a credentialed tutor if they're home schooled.
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Posted on 03-13-08 10:17:49 PM Link | Quote
This is unfair to the children who are too advanced for public school. For example, if a fifth-grade stude student can do algebra in addition to what they are learning in public school, then the school should be teaching them algebra. As a matter of fact, schools nowadays shoot even lower than the grade level they should be shooting for...they do all these things to help the students at the lower end of the bell curve, but nothing for the higher end, and as such the students in the middle part and in the higher end of the bell curve are dragged down to the lower end's material.

This is another case showing that the government only cares about themselves and not for the citizens, as they even receive money for each student in public school...in this case, they just want their money regardless of what they're doing to the students that this ruling affects.
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Posted on 03-13-08 11:58:04 PM Link | Quote
Originally posted by pieguy1372
This is unfair to the children who are too advanced for public school. For example, if a fifth-grade stude student can do algebra in addition to what they are learning in public school, then
...they should have no trouble finding a tutor (or a private school, for that matter) that would be jumping at the chance to teach gifted students. Sorry, the original ending for that sentence sucked so I wrote a new one; I hope you don't mind.

IIMarckus: I meant basic competencies. Reading, writing, math, history. You know, the usual.
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Posted on 03-14-08 12:26:18 AM Link | Quote

Originally posted by Skreeny
It's a fairly safe assumption that for every one child raised properly via homeschooling, there would be 3 or more that were done improperly.

I mean, seriously. Is it that bad to have to have the child be at least tutored by someone with credentials?

Well, I don't know- correct me if I'm wrong, which I very well may be, but don't elementary and middle school level teachers have an "education" degree as their primary credential, which is more about child psychology than a specific subject? Now, as long as the parents are using decent teaching materials and such, as long as they are teaching their own children, who presumably they would already have some firsthand knowledge of that child's mind and how it works, better than a general degree (perhaps I'm being foolish about the parent's abilities here)...

It's the legitimate teaching materials and whether the kid is actually being taught that I'm most worried- I wonder if any families simply say that they're "homeschooling" but what this really means is just dad showing Junior some addition problems on Sunday night.

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Posted on 03-14-08 12:46:11 AM Link | Quote
Originally posted by Skreeny
Originally posted by pieguy1372
This is unfair to the children who are too advanced for public school. For example, if a fifth-grade stude student can do algebra in addition to what they are learning in public school, then
...they should have no trouble finding a tutor (or a private school, for that matter) that would be jumping at the chance to teach gifted students.

One has to pay for tutors, though one does not have to pay for homeschool. Furthermore, all the hype about "grade level" is one that many people follow, and as such hiring a tutor may turn up the same dead end as public school would.
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Posted on 03-14-08 01:03:47 AM Link | Quote
Just for the record, I was home-schooled "improperly"... But I learned more during my years of "improper" homeschooling than I have ever learned with a teacher or tutor.
How, you ask? Well, I taught myself, mostly. In fact, I seem to learn best on my own.
By the time I was 14, I had taught myself physics, history, algebra, and a little bit of calculus. Most of it was college level. In the process of doing this, I had also learned many new words.
...I never really liked working with tutors or teachers, so that's why I was home-schooled in the first place. That also means you shouldn't say I should have gone to a private school or seen a tutor. (We really didn't have the money any way...)
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Posted on 03-14-08 01:11:20 AM Link | Quote
Originally posted by pieguy1372
One has to pay for tutors, though one does not have to pay for homeschool.
That's sort of true, but doesn't take into account the fact that homeschooling parents also have to buy a curriculum (expensive, and eBay doesn't sell teacher's guides). Also, you usually have at least one parent at home to teach full-time, so there's no two-way income.
Originally posted by Skreeny
...they should have no trouble finding a tutor (or a private school, for that matter) that would be jumping at the chance to teach gifted students.
The majority of homeschoolers live in rural areas. I know where I grew up, you'd have a hard time finding any sort of tutor, let alone in a specific subject.

Interestingly enough, about 1 in 20 Californian teachers are on "emergency credentials," which (apparently) means they just have to pass the CBEST and hold a Bachelor's degree. I dunno whether homeschooling parents are allowed to use those or not, but... :shrug:

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[Posted by IIMarckus]
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