Register - Login
Views: 99387277
 Main - Memberlist - Active users - Calendar - Wiki - IRC Chat - Online users
Ranks - Rules/FAQ - Stats - Latest Posts - Color Chart - Smilies		 04-24-22 06:03:46 AM
Jul - The Cutting Room Floor - "Lost" revisions of commercial games New poll - New thread - New reply
Next newer thread | Next older thread
devin

Yoshi
i'm mima irl
Level: 112


Posts: 3221/3519
EXP: 14918752
For next: 419453

Since: 04-29-08

Pronouns: any
From: FL

Since last post: 297 days
Last activity: 1 day
Posted on 08-12-16 01:54:40 PM Link | Quote
This came up the other day when discussing the Satellaview version of SimCity, which is not currently dumped, but has some screenshots (and possibly footage?) available.

I'm in favor of having it and other Satellaview editions of games in the mainspace article for the original game (see BS Panel de Pon which I wrote about in the Tetris Attack article), but in this case, said version of the game isn't actually available. The article right now uses the "defunct game" template, but that doesn't really seem appropriate here (and we do have a "don't write about stuff that isn't publicly available" rule for prototypes, etc. but this is something that was available for a limited time but is currently considered lost).

Should there be a template/category for cases like this (i.e. special versions of normal commercial games that were released to the public but no longer available/existent)? There are probably a number of other Satellaview releases like this I'd like to document as such, if possible.

____________________
Photo by Luc Viatour
ReyVGM
Member
Level: 17


Posts: 48/52
EXP: 22466
For next: 2277

Since: 06-25-12


Since last post: 5.6 years
Last activity: 1.1 years
Posted on 08-13-16 04:41:56 AM Link | Quote
I don't agree with having it on the Sim City page, because that will open the door for more people to add content that isn't about what the site is about.

However, I do agree with having a separate section for it. The game might not be dumped, but that doesn't mean it will be lost forever (hopefully). So having a section where you can 'document' games that haven't been dumped is okay with me. It's still unavailable/inaccessible content, right?
divingkataetheweirdo

Bandit
TCRF Super Editor
Level: 57


Posts: 617/822
EXP: 1479687
For next: 6241

Since: 07-09-11


Since last post: 1.6 years
Last activity: 253 days
Posted on 08-13-16 04:59:45 AM Link | Quote
As I said on the IRC, this would be a better fit on the Lost Media Wiki than TCRF. Yes, it is technically a lost game, but I have no idea if it does fit on the wiki.

We don't have the ROM for it and it's very unlikely we will find one soon. We could have categories for lost variants of games (which the BSX version of Sim City is) and DLC, though.

____________________
devin

Yoshi
i'm mima irl
Level: 112


Posts: 3223/3519
EXP: 14918752
For next: 419453

Since: 04-29-08

Pronouns: any
From: FL

Since last post: 297 days
Last activity: 1 day
Posted on 08-13-16 05:01:45 AM (last edited by devin at 08-13-16 05:11:05 AM) Link | Quote
Originally posted by ReyVGM
I don't agree with having it on the Sim City page, because that will open the door for more people to add content that isn't about what the site is about.

I don't really see it is being that different from what we already document - "revisional dfferences" are already a decent chunk of content on the site, but this is an unusual case where the "normal" version of the game is available to the public but the revision (currently) isn't.
Originally posted by ReyVGM
The game might not be dumped, but that doesn't mean it will be lost forever (hopefully). So having a section where you can 'document' games that haven't been dumped is okay with me. It's still unavailable/inaccessible content, right?

In contrast, I think documenting all undumped games already sort of goes against what the site is about for the same reason we specifically don't cover unreleased prototypes - that is, we only want to cover stuff that any user could potentially see for themselves in an actual (or downloaded) copy of a game.

I feel like the idea of a "lost" (public, non-prototype) version of a commonly-available game sort of falls into a weird place between the easy definitions of the stuff we do want to cover and stuff we don't, which is why I'm curious what anyone else thinks.

____________________
Photo by Luc Viatour
MooMilk
Member
Level: 11


Posts: 9/25
EXP: 5721
For next: 264

Since: 07-29-16


Since last post: 4.1 years
Last activity: 2.6 years
Posted on 08-13-16 05:51:51 AM (last edited by MooMilk at 08-13-16 01:27:48 PM) Link | Quote
DRX has a prototype wiki that such a article would work on I think:

http://hiddenpalace.org/
ICEknight
Member
Level: 26


Posts: 123/135
EXP: 97119
For next: 5156

Since: 10-25-11


Since last post: 4.1 years
Last activity: 3.9 years
Posted on 08-13-16 09:52:58 AM Link | Quote
Originally posted by MooMilk
DRX has a prototype wiki that such a article would work on I think:

http://hiddenpalace.org/
How so? This is not a prototype.
MooMilk
Member
Level: 11


Posts: 10/25
EXP: 5721
For next: 264

Since: 07-29-16


Since last post: 4.1 years
Last activity: 2.6 years
Posted on 08-13-16 01:27:11 PM Link | Quote
Yeah you're right. It isn't. Nevermind.
ReyVGM
Member
Level: 17


Posts: 49/52
EXP: 22466
For next: 2277

Since: 06-25-12


Since last post: 5.6 years
Last activity: 1.1 years
Posted on 08-13-16 03:17:05 PM Link | Quote
Originally posted by devin
Originally posted by ReyVGM
I don't agree with having it on the Sim City page, because that will open the door for more people to add content that isn't about what the site is about.

I don't really see it is being that different from what we already document - "revisional dfferences" are already a decent chunk of content on the site, but this is an unusual case where the "normal" version of the game is available to the public but the revision (currently) isn't.

Originally posted by ReyVGM
The game might not be dumped, but that doesn't mean it will be lost forever (hopefully). So having a section where you can 'document' games that haven't been dumped is okay with me. It's still unavailable/inaccessible content, right?

In contrast, I think documenting all undumped games already sort of goes against what the site is about for the same reason we specifically don't cover unreleased prototypes - that is, we only want to cover stuff that any user could potentially see for themselves in an actual (or downloaded) copy of a game.

I feel like the idea of a "lost" (public, non-prototype) version of a commonly-available game sort of falls into a weird place between the easy definitions of the stuff we do want to cover and stuff we don't, which is why I'm curious what anyone else thinks.


Well, in my opinion it should not be on the Sim City page. Isn't there already a site that covers lost games? Lostlevels.org I believe.

The user that posted the BS Sim City stuff could keep the info in his profile, or it could be added to the talk page of the game until one day the game is dumped.

And games that have the "BS" subtitle are soundlink games, and while they might look like the original cart releases, they are in fact different. So if BS Sim City ever gets dumped, it would probably get its own page just like BS F-Zero and BS Zelda (both of them) have their own pages.
devin

Yoshi
i'm mima irl
Level: 112


Posts: 3226/3519
EXP: 14918752
For next: 419453

Since: 04-29-08

Pronouns: any
From: FL

Since last post: 297 days
Last activity: 1 day
Posted on 08-13-16 03:25:30 PM (last edited by devin at 08-13-16 03:27:20 PM) Link | Quote
Originally posted by ReyVGM
And games that have the "BS" subtitle are soundlink games


This isn't actually always the case (in fact, the BS F-Zero article is specificially about the non-Soundlink edition), and I personally think releases like BS F-Zero, BS Super Mario USA, etc. could eventually be part of their respective "original" games' pages. The BS Zelda games are a different case since they're completely Satellaview-exclusive, not altered versions of cartridge games.

(edit: I guess the non-soundlink F-Zero being a "sequel" to the previous Satellaview one probably qualifies it for its own page after all, but you get the idea)

____________________
Photo by Luc Viatour
ReyVGM
Member
Level: 17


Posts: 50/52
EXP: 22466
For next: 2277

Since: 06-25-12


Since last post: 5.6 years
Last activity: 1.1 years
Posted on 08-13-16 04:02:15 PM Link | Quote
Originally posted by devin
Originally posted by ReyVGM
And games that have the "BS" subtitle are soundlink games


This isn't actually always the case (in fact, the BS F-Zero article is specificially about the non-Soundlink edition), and I personally think releases like BS F-Zero, BS Super Mario USA, etc. could eventually be part of their respective "original" games' pages. The BS Zelda games are a different case since they're completely Satellaview-exclusive, not altered versions of cartridge games.

(edit: I guess the non-soundlink F-Zero being a "sequel" to the previous Satellaview one probably qualifies it for its own page after all, but you get the idea)


In the case of the non-soundlink (Practice) version of BS Fzero GP 2, that practice version should be part of an eventual soundlink BS Fzero GP2 page (which doesn't exist right now), and not the original F-Zero page. In my opinion.

BS Zelda 1 is indeed made for the ground up for the BSX, but Zelda Ancient Stone Tablets is pretty much a romhack of ALttP, so shouldn't that be absorbed into the ALttP page (please don't! ).

For example, if the BS version of ALttP contained differences, then it should be absorbed into the regular ALttP page. But BS Zelda Ancient Stone Tablets, should not. BS Super Mario USA should not be absorbed either because it has a lot of differences (even if most were streamed and are now lost).

Anyway, you have more say and weight as to how the site should run, but if it was me I would always keep pages separate if the other version of the game has new content and it's named differently.
ICEknight
Member
Level: 26


Posts: 124/135
EXP: 97119
For next: 5156

Since: 10-25-11


Since last post: 4.1 years
Last activity: 3.9 years
Posted on 08-14-16 01:54:32 PM (last edited by ICEknight at 08-14-16 03:07:34 PM) Link | Quote
Originally posted by ReyVGM
Well, in my opinion it should not be on the Sim City page. Isn't there already a site that covers lost games? Lostlevels.org I believe.

No. That site covers unreleased games.

This game was released. It's a regular variation of a game that's already on the wiki, which we just happen not to have a dump of, yet.


I'd say these cases should be treated as any other similar games that are already included on the wiki but using the non-emulator pictures while it's still not dumped, just because we don't have anything else.

For example: If somebody owned an extremely protected arcade version of, say, Street Fighter III, the lack of emulatable ROMs shouldn't stop us from documenting it on the wiki.
Next newer thread | Next older thread
Jul - The Cutting Room Floor - "Lost" revisions of commercial games New poll - New thread - New reply


Rusted Logic
Acmlmboard - commit 47be4dc [2021-08-23]
©2000-2022 Acmlm, Xkeeper, Kaito Sinclaire, et al.

33 database queries, 6 query cache hits.
Query execution time:  0.100093 seconds
Script execution time:  0.019275 seconds
Total render time:  0.119368 seconds


TidyHTML vomit below
line 1 column 1 - Warning: missing <!DOCTYPE> declaration
line 2 column 301 - Warning: unescaped & or unknown entity "&page"
line 119 column 11 - Warning: <form> isn't allowed in <table> elements
line 118 column 10 - Info: <table> previously mentioned
line 120 column 11 - Warning: missing <tr>
line 120 column 119 - Warning: missing </font> before </td>
line 124 column 16 - Warning: plain text isn't allowed in <tr> elements
line 120 column 11 - Info: <tr> previously mentioned
line 125 column 68 - Warning: missing </nobr> before </td>
line 141 column 68 - Warning: missing </nobr> before <tr>
line 147 column 35 - Warning: missing <tr>
line 147 column 50 - Warning: missing </font> before </td>
line 148 column 37 - Warning: unescaped & or unknown entity "&id"
line 147 column 217 - Warning: missing </font> before </table>
line 149 column 35 - Warning: missing <tr>
line 149 column 50 - Warning: missing </font> before </td>
line 149 column 91 - Warning: missing </font> before </table>
line 156 column 9 - Warning: <div> isn't allowed in <table> elements
line 152 column 17 - Info: <table> previously mentioned
line 158 column 9 - Warning: missing <tr>
line 176 column 13 - Warning: missing <tr>
line 177 column 102 - Warning: unescaped & or unknown entity "&postid"
line 186 column 9 - Warning: <div> isn't allowed in <table> elements
line 152 column 17 - Info: <table> previously mentioned
line 188 column 9 - Warning: missing <tr>
line 206 column 13 - Warning: missing <tr>
line 207 column 102 - Warning: unescaped & or unknown entity "&postid"
line 214 column 9 - Warning: <div> isn't allowed in <table> elements
line 152 column 17 - Info: <table> previously mentioned
line 216 column 9 - Warning: missing <tr>
line 234 column 13 - Warning: missing <tr>
line 235 column 102 - Warning: unescaped & or unknown entity "&postid"
line 242 column 9 - Warning: <div> isn't allowed in <table> elements
line 152 column 17 - Info: <table> previously mentioned
line 244 column 9 - Warning: missing <tr>
line 262 column 13 - Warning: missing <tr>
line 263 column 102 - Warning: unescaped & or unknown entity "&postid"
line 265 column 536 - Warning: missing </span> before <blockquote>
line 265 column 616 - Warning: inserting implicit <span>
line 265 column 616 - Warning: missing </span> before <hr>
line 265 column 679 - Warning: inserting implicit <span>
line 265 column 679 - Warning: missing </span> before <hr>
line 266 column 1 - Warning: inserting implicit <span>
line 266 column 1 - Warning: missing </span> before <blockquote>
line 268 column 1156 - Warning: inserting implicit <span>
line 268 column 1156 - Warning: missing </span> before <hr>
line 268 column 1219 - Warning: inserting implicit <span>
line 268 column 1219 - Warning: missing </span> before <hr>
line 269 column 1 - Warning: inserting implicit <span>
line 274 column 9 - Warning: <div> isn't allowed in <table> elements
line 152 column 17 - Info: <table> previously mentioned
line 276 column 9 - Warning: missing <tr>
line 294 column 13 - Warning: missing <tr>
line 295 column 102 - Warning: unescaped & or unknown entity "&postid"
line 302 column 9 - Warning: <div> isn't allowed in <table> elements
line 152 column 17 - Info: <table> previously mentioned
line 304 column 9 - Warning: missing <tr>
line 322 column 13 - Warning: missing <tr>
line 323 column 102 - Warning: unescaped & or unknown entity "&postid"
line 330 column 9 - Warning: <div> isn't allowed in <table> elements
line 152 column 17 - Info: <table> previously mentioned
line 332 column 9 - Warning: missing <tr>
line 350 column 13 - Warning: missing <tr>
line 351 column 102 - Warning: unescaped & or unknown entity "&postid"
line 356 column 9 - Warning: <div> isn't allowed in <table> elements
line 152 column 17 - Info: <table> previously mentioned
line 358 column 9 - Warning: missing <tr>
line 376 column 13 - Warning: missing <tr>
line 377 column 102 - Warning: unescaped & or unknown entity "&postid"
line 394 column 9 - Warning: <div> isn't allowed in <table> elements
line 152 column 17 - Info: <table> previously mentioned
line 396 column 9 - Warning: missing <tr>
line 414 column 13 - Warning: missing <tr>
line 415 column 102 - Warning: unescaped & or unknown entity "&postid"
line 417 column 536 - Warning: missing </span> before <blockquote>
line 417 column 616 - Warning: inserting implicit <span>
line 417 column 616 - Warning: missing </span> before <hr>
line 417 column 679 - Warning: inserting implicit <span>
line 417 column 679 - Warning: missing </span> before <hr>
line 418 column 1 - Warning: inserting implicit <span>
line 424 column 9 - Warning: <div> isn't allowed in <table> elements
line 152 column 17 - Info: <table> previously mentioned
line 426 column 9 - Warning: missing <tr>
line 444 column 13 - Warning: missing <tr>
line 445 column 102 - Warning: unescaped & or unknown entity "&postid"
line 463 column 9 - Warning: <div> isn't allowed in <table> elements
line 152 column 17 - Info: <table> previously mentioned
line 465 column 9 - Warning: missing <tr>
line 483 column 13 - Warning: missing <tr>
line 484 column 102 - Warning: unescaped & or unknown entity "&postid"
line 497 column 17 - Warning: missing <tr>
line 497 column 17 - Warning: discarding unexpected <table>
line 500 column 35 - Warning: missing <tr>
line 500 column 50 - Warning: missing </font> before </td>
line 500 column 91 - Warning: missing </font> before </table>
line 502 column 35 - Warning: missing <tr>
line 502 column 50 - Warning: missing </font> before </td>
line 503 column 37 - Warning: unescaped & or unknown entity "&id"
line 502 column 217 - Warning: missing </font> before </table>
line 504 column 17 - Warning: discarding unexpected </textarea>
line 504 column 28 - Warning: discarding unexpected </form>
line 504 column 35 - Warning: discarding unexpected </embed>
line 504 column 43 - Warning: discarding unexpected </noembed>
line 504 column 53 - Warning: discarding unexpected </noscript>
line 504 column 64 - Warning: discarding unexpected </noembed>
line 504 column 74 - Warning: discarding unexpected </embed>
line 504 column 82 - Warning: discarding unexpected </table>
line 504 column 90 - Warning: discarding unexpected </table>
line 506 column 9 - Warning: missing </font> before <table>
line 518 column 25 - Warning: discarding unexpected </font>
line 527 column 57 - Warning: discarding unexpected </font>
line 505 column 1 - Warning: missing </center>
line 120 column 63 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 125 column 19 - Warning: <td> attribute "width" has invalid value "120px"
line 125 column 93 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 141 column 19 - Warning: <td> attribute "width" has invalid value "120px"
line 141 column 98 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 148 column 44 - Warning: <img> proprietary attribute value "absmiddle"
line 148 column 142 - Warning: <img> proprietary attribute value "absmiddle"
line 148 column 246 - Warning: <img> proprietary attribute value "absmiddle"
line 160 column 11 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 161 column 23 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 161 column 64 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 161 column 113 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 161 column 163 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 162 column 11 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 172 column 15 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 191 column 22 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 191 column 63 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 191 column 112 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 191 column 162 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 202 column 15 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 218 column 11 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 219 column 22 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 219 column 63 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 219 column 112 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 219 column 161 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 220 column 11 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 230 column 15 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 239 column 461 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 246 column 11 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 247 column 23 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 247 column 64 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 247 column 113 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 247 column 163 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 248 column 11 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 258 column 15 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 279 column 22 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 279 column 63 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 279 column 112 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 279 column 162 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 290 column 15 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 307 column 22 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 307 column 63 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 307 column 112 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 307 column 162 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 318 column 15 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 335 column 22 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 335 column 63 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 335 column 112 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 335 column 162 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 346 column 15 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 361 column 22 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 361 column 63 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 361 column 112 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 361 column 162 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 372 column 15 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 398 column 11 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 399 column 23 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 399 column 64 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 399 column 113 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 399 column 163 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 400 column 11 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 410 column 15 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 429 column 22 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 429 column 63 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 429 column 112 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 429 column 162 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 440 column 15 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 455 column 1316 - Warning: <img> proprietary attribute value "absmiddle"
line 455 column 1316 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 468 column 22 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 468 column 63 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 468 column 112 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 468 column 162 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 479 column 15 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 503 column 44 - Warning: <img> proprietary attribute value "absmiddle"
line 503 column 142 - Warning: <img> proprietary attribute value "absmiddle"
line 503 column 246 - Warning: <img> proprietary attribute value "absmiddle"
line 512 column 25 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 517 column 267 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 149 column 50 - Warning: trimming empty <font>
line 265 column 536 - Warning: trimming empty <span>
line 417 column 536 - Warning: trimming empty <span>
line 497 column 17 - Warning: trimming empty <tr>
line 500 column 50 - Warning: trimming empty <font>
line 125 column 68 - Warning: <nobr> is not approved by W3C
line 141 column 68 - Warning: <nobr> is not approved by W3C
line 177 column 27 - Warning: <nobr> is not approved by W3C
line 207 column 27 - Warning: <nobr> is not approved by W3C
line 235 column 27 - Warning: <nobr> is not approved by W3C
line 263 column 27 - Warning: <nobr> is not approved by W3C
line 295 column 27 - Warning: <nobr> is not approved by W3C
line 323 column 27 - Warning: <nobr> is not approved by W3C
line 351 column 27 - Warning: <nobr> is not approved by W3C
line 377 column 27 - Warning: <nobr> is not approved by W3C
line 415 column 27 - Warning: <nobr> is not approved by W3C
line 445 column 27 - Warning: <nobr> is not approved by W3C
line 484 column 27 - Warning: <nobr> is not approved by W3C
Info: Document content looks like HTML5
Info: No system identifier in emitted doctype
Tidy found 196 warnings and 0 errors!


The alt attribute should be used to give a short description
of an image; longer descriptions should be given with the
longdesc attribute which takes a URL linked to the description.
These measures are needed for people using non-graphical browsers.

For further advice on how to make your pages accessible
see http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL.
You are recommended to use CSS to specify the font and
properties such as its size and color. This will reduce
the size of HTML files and make them easier to maintain
compared with using <FONT> elements.

You are recommended to use CSS to control line wrapping.
Use "white-space: nowrap" to inhibit wrapping in place
of inserting <NOBR>...</NOBR> into the markup.

About HTML Tidy: https://github.com/htacg/tidy-html5
Bug reports and comments: https://github.com/htacg/tidy-html5/issues
Official mailing list: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-htacg/
Latest HTML specification: http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec-author-view/
Validate your HTML documents: http://validator.w3.org/nu/
Lobby your company to join the W3C: http://www.w3.org/Consortium

Do you speak a language other than English, or a different variant of
English? Consider helping us to localize HTML Tidy. For details please see
https://github.com/htacg/tidy-html5/blob/master/README/LOCALIZE.md