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Jul - The Cutting Room Floor - Cover Cancelled Games New poll - New thread - New reply
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AK47Productions
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Posted on 06-29-12 12:35:02 AM Link | Quote
We have all heard of at least one cancelled game. From the widely publicized Dinosaur Planet to not so well known titles such as Pocket Monsters RPG and countless titles for the N64DD. My point is if TCRF should cover cancelled games or leave that to other sites out there.
RahanAkero

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Posted on 06-29-12 12:49:46 AM Link | Quote
We do.

Thing is, we only cover games that we can actually access, poke at, and otherwise document accurately, rather than engaging in baseless speculation, like a certain forum post says we shouldn't do.

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Posted on 06-29-12 12:54:17 AM (last edited by Mattrizzle at 06-29-12 12:55:45 AM) Link | Quote
I don't know about this. TCRF has always been about the tangible content in games that have been released, or their prototypes. We do have some cancelled games on the wiki already, but only if ROMs are known to exist and are accessible to a large number of people (e.g. Star Fox 2).

Besides, what content do we have for some of these cancelled games? There's maybe one blurry screenshot of Dinosaur Planet, and none for Pocket Monsters RPG. Magazine articles aren't always trustworthy when it comes to information, either (e.g. If I remember correctly Super Mario 64 2 was listed as one of the upcoming games in Nintendo Power's Pak Watch, but did it ever truly exist beyond a concept? We have little evidence to answer this question.).

(I started writing this before I saw Rahan's reply, so I apologize if part of it sounds like a broken record.)

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Posted on 06-29-12 02:50:22 AM Link | Quote
Originally posted by AK47Productions
We have all heard of at least one cancelled game. From the widely publicized Dinosaur Planet to not so well known titles such as Pocket Monsters RPG and countless titles for the N64DD. My point is if TCRF should cover cancelled games or leave that to other sites out there.


I am going to say what has already been said but it is worth saying. I do not think that there is any point for TCRF to cover unreleased/canceled games unless we have access to them. The main reason for this is because that will usually only leave us with pics or photos along some vague description of the game. There is just no way to prove that the photos and the description are accurate. Regardless of the quality of the photos, who says that they aren't faked along with the description? Who says that the unreleased game existed in the first place? For example, go Google "Super Mario FX". According to people, it was suppose to be a 3D Mario game for the SNES but was scrapped for Super Mario 64. If you look at the following page, it tries to explain how the game never existed to begin with:

http://www.snescentral.com/article.php?id=1032

Regardless if the game in question is an unreleased game or some prototype. How are we suppose to tell what is real from what is fake from some random pics/info? The answer is that we can't and TCRF should steer clear of such games. What makes TCRF special is that people actually dig up unused/prototype materials from the games themselves with the details of how they were able to find the material. This makes the info on the site that much more credible and reliable than a site that displays the development of a game with crappy photos and a vague description of a game. If you can't support a claim with solid evidence then there is no point to take the claim seriously.

If you really want to add info about unreleased games to TCRF, go find a copy of that game first, play it, and then document it. For example, one unreleased game that I can think of that isn't on TCRF is Glover 2 for the N64. You can actually find it on the web. I keep meaning to play it myself and add it but I keep getting sidetracked from it....
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Posted on 06-29-12 03:30:38 AM Link | Quote
Pocket Monsters RPG has no trace of existence, either. I did a bunch of research on the Japanese internet about it and went so far as to ask Junichi Masuda about it on Twitter at someone's behest, and he had no idea what I was talking about. It was just the development name for Pokémon Crystal, iirc.

Another misunderstanding to add to the list.

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Posted on 06-30-12 07:40:00 PM Link | Quote
It's a well-known fact that magazines made up all sorts of ridiculous crap based on a handful of screenshots and hearsay. It's not worth documenting, and I don't want it on the wiki.

I wouldn't mind starting up a repository of prerelease screenshots sometime in the future, but I'd prefer we keep it text-free, aside from developer interviews or other relevant, verifiable information.

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Posted on 07-01-12 02:34:32 AM Link | Quote
Originally posted by BMF54123
It's a well-known fact that magazines made up all sorts of ridiculous crap based on a handful of screenshots and hearsay. It's not worth documenting, and I don't want it on the wiki.

I wouldn't mind starting up a repository of prerelease screenshots sometime in the future, but I'd prefer we keep it text-free, aside from developer interviews or other relevant, verifiable information.


Actually, I think that would be very cool to have as long as it would be separate from TCRF. Seeing a history of promotional material(pictures/videos) for games is definitely interesting. There are two things that concern me. You are going to have to sift through what materials you could get. You are bound to get people who will submit really crappy pictures from who knows where. It wouldn't be a bad idea to cite where material is coming from. The other thing is people might try to add promotional material for unreleased games as well which fine but it might be hard to tell which games were actually real. If people start posting stuff about games like "Super Mario FX", it will clutter the new wiki. Citations should be strict to keep crap like that out but what the hell do I know....................
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Posted on 07-02-12 06:13:09 AM Link | Quote
Strict citations gets to be a problem though. What's to say what is a valid source and what's not? Obviously there's always crack-pot fans making shit up, but valid places aren't exempt from wonky pre-release screens. Didn't a bunch of Link Awakening screenshots get reviewed and found to be mock-ups? Would this invalidate them as a viable source for pre-release info? That opens up how to differentiate acceptable mock-ups and unacceptable ones, which is a problem if there's no indication of what's even valid in the first place :/

Unseen64 has an open-wiki-like system which would work for pre-release stuff, so I'd think most people interested in contributed stuff like that head over to that resource. However, it's webhost stuff has been pretty spotty throughout the years :/
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Posted on 07-02-12 06:32:46 AM (last edited by Eon at 07-02-12 06:33:48 AM) Link | Quote
Mock-ups are off topic. TCRF should keep to content known created and has some form of evidence in the game's existing versions.

Exceptions might be things not feasible to publicly study, like test location only arcade games. We can presume they were returned to their owners or destroyed.

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Posted on 07-02-12 07:33:07 PM Link | Quote
What about demos of games that never ended up being released?

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Posted on 07-02-12 07:59:01 PM Link | Quote
Considering those we can actually see and inspect the files for ourselves, those should be fair game.

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Posted on 07-02-12 08:34:37 PM Link | Quote
Wait, why are we limiting this to only games that have been released? The whole idea behind the screenshot archive was that it would be a mostly separate entity within TCRF, with a different purpose, and thus not subject to the same rules.

As for mockups, they are still official promotional materials, and often contain unused elements and ideas that are worth archiving.

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Posted on 07-02-12 11:55:12 PM (last edited by GlitterBerri at 07-02-12 11:56:08 PM) Link | Quote
I'd hate to have any old screenshots lost to the ether, mockups or otherwise. I think they're still interesting and worthy of archiving. And yeah, Unseen64 is a bit difficult and annoying to navigate (sorry, monokoma!). I'd prefer to use TCRF's simple, intuitive organizational style.

I mean, we could just create subpages for various games with prerelease screenshots. Ocarina of Time -> Ocarina of Time Prerelease Material. That wouldn't clutter up the existing wiki pages.

As for commentary, I think it would be alright to have someone point out the differences between the prerelease shots and the final version, without adding their own speculation.

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AK47Productions
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Posted on 07-03-12 01:48:21 AM Link | Quote
Originally posted by BMF54123
It's a well-known fact that magazines made up all sorts of ridiculous crap based on a handful of screenshots and hearsay. It's not worth documenting, and I don't want it on the wiki.

I wouldn't mind starting up a repository of prerelease screenshots sometime in the future, but I'd prefer we keep it text-free, aside from developer interviews or other relevant, verifiable information.



So if this wiki of prerelease images, videos, and all that becomes a separate wiki then what would we call it?
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Posted on 07-03-12 11:47:19 AM Link | Quote
The Cutting Room Cutting Room Floor?

The Cutting Room Trashcan?

The Cutting Room Basement?

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Posted on 07-05-12 06:25:41 PM Link | Quote
Originally posted by Mattrizzle
...There's maybe one blurry screenshot of Dinosaur Planet, ...


Fangirl in me having a moment: There's a lot more material for Dinosaur Planet than one blurry screenshot. We have entire trailers, multiple, many clear screenshots, desktop wallpaper, concept art, etc. There's even things in the pre-existing Star Fox Adventures data to cross-confirm what story details and other hints we can get from the art, and various magazines, such as the wizard Randorn, the original fox hero, Sabre, and Krystal, a cat. Not to mention, obvious hints that both were to be equally playable...

Off that soapbox, please forgive me.

Name suggestions? The Cutting Room Gallery?
AK47Productions
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Posted on 07-05-12 11:00:20 PM Link | Quote
How about "The Cutting Room Vault" for a name?
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Posted on 07-08-12 07:58:40 AM Link | Quote
The Scrapboard? Fits in with the content, just as The Cutting Room Floor reflects its content. The resource would be dedicated to scrapped stuff/early concepts, not necessarily things that didn't make the final cut but were ready/created. Though the boundary is much more defined than this post alludes to :E
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Rusted Logic
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line 449 column 112 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 449 column 162 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 450 column 11 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 460 column 15 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 467 column 437 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 470 column 1063 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 479 column 11 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 480 column 23 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 480 column 64 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 480 column 113 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 480 column 163 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 481 column 11 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 491 column 15 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 498 column 570 - Warning: <img> proprietary attribute value "absmiddle"
line 498 column 570 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 507 column 11 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 508 column 22 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 508 column 63 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 508 column 112 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 508 column 161 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 509 column 11 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 519 column 15 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 523 column 92 - Warning: <font> attribute "color" had invalid value "F185C9" and has been replaced
line 539 column 21 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 539 column 62 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 539 column 111 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 539 column 160 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 540 column 11 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 550 column 15 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 570 column 22 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 570 column 63 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 570 column 112 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 570 column 162 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 571 column 11 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 581 column 15 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 599 column 15 - Warning: <img> proprietary attribute value "absmiddle"
line 599 column 15 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 599 column 58 - Warning: <img> proprietary attribute value "absmiddle"
line 599 column 58 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 599 column 101 - Warning: <img> proprietary attribute value "absmiddle"
line 599 column 101 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 599 column 144 - Warning: <img> proprietary attribute value "absmiddle"
line 599 column 144 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 600 column 22 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 600 column 63 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 600 column 112 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 600 column 162 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 611 column 15 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 633 column 21 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 633 column 62 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 633 column 111 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 633 column 160 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 634 column 11 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 644 column 15 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 659 column 22 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 659 column 63 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 659 column 112 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 659 column 162 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 670 column 15 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 686 column 44 - Warning: <img> proprietary attribute value "absmiddle"
line 686 column 142 - Warning: <img> proprietary attribute value "absmiddle"
line 686 column 246 - Warning: <img> proprietary attribute value "absmiddle"
line 695 column 25 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 700 column 267 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 149 column 50 - Warning: trimming empty <font>
line 467 column 363 - Warning: trimming empty <font>
line 680 column 17 - Warning: trimming empty <tr>
line 683 column 50 - Warning: trimming empty <font>
line 125 column 68 - Warning: <nobr> is not approved by W3C
line 141 column 68 - Warning: <nobr> is not approved by W3C
line 177 column 27 - Warning: <nobr> is not approved by W3C
line 203 column 27 - Warning: <nobr> is not approved by W3C
line 232 column 27 - Warning: <nobr> is not approved by W3C
line 262 column 27 - Warning: <nobr> is not approved by W3C
line 296 column 27 - Warning: <nobr> is not approved by W3C
line 325 column 27 - Warning: <nobr> is not approved by W3C
line 353 column 27 - Warning: <nobr> is not approved by W3C
line 383 column 27 - Warning: <nobr> is not approved by W3C
line 411 column 27 - Warning: <nobr> is not approved by W3C
line 439 column 27 - Warning: <nobr> is not approved by W3C
line 465 column 27 - Warning: <nobr> is not approved by W3C
line 469 column 710 - Warning: <td> proprietary attribute "background"
line 496 column 27 - Warning: <nobr> is not approved by W3C
line 524 column 27 - Warning: <nobr> is not approved by W3C
line 555 column 27 - Warning: <nobr> is not approved by W3C
line 586 column 27 - Warning: <nobr> is not approved by W3C
line 616 column 27 - Warning: <nobr> is not approved by W3C
line 649 column 27 - Warning: <nobr> is not approved by W3C
line 675 column 27 - Warning: <nobr> is not approved by W3C
Info: Document content looks like HTML5
Info: No system identifier in emitted doctype
Tidy found 301 warnings and 0 errors!


The alt attribute should be used to give a short description
of an image; longer descriptions should be given with the
longdesc attribute which takes a URL linked to the description.
These measures are needed for people using non-graphical browsers.

For further advice on how to make your pages accessible
see http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL.
You are recommended to use CSS to specify the font and
properties such as its size and color. This will reduce
the size of HTML files and make them easier to maintain
compared with using <FONT> elements.

You are recommended to use CSS to control line wrapping.
Use "white-space: nowrap" to inhibit wrapping in place
of inserting <NOBR>...</NOBR> into the markup.

About HTML Tidy: https://github.com/htacg/tidy-html5
Bug reports and comments: https://github.com/htacg/tidy-html5/issues
Official mailing list: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-htacg/
Latest HTML specification: http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec-author-view/
Validate your HTML documents: http://validator.w3.org/nu/
Lobby your company to join the W3C: http://www.w3.org/Consortium

Do you speak a language other than English, or a different variant of
English? Consider helping us to localize HTML Tidy. For details please see
https://github.com/htacg/tidy-html5/blob/master/README/LOCALIZE.md