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Jul - The Cutting Room Floor - The Cutting Room Floor: The Convention Panel New poll - New thread - New reply
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Rick
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Posted on 12-19-11 09:27:59 PM Link | Quote
Alright, so, I'm seriously considering starting to do a panel at Otakon next year about the stuff that's on The Cutting Room Floor, both as kind of a PR move and as a way to spread the info about this sort of stuff in a face-to-face way! However, I'm kind of at a loss as to how I would fill about an hour's worth of time.

I figure talking about some stuff for about 45-50 minutes, and then leaving 5-10 mins for questions at the end would be good. However, I'm a little baffled at what I should fill 45 minutes talking about. What would be some of the more interesting things to talk about, you think? I have a bad habit of not hitting the right stuff that's actually interesting to talk about.

Thoughts? I seriously wanna start getting this ready really, really freakin' early so I'm all set to go when it's done.

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divingkataetheweirdo

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Posted on 12-19-11 10:02:50 PM (last edited by divingkataetheweirdo at 12-19-11 07:19 PM) Link | Quote
That's actually a nice idea, Rick. Although, I must say the legality of the whole wiki is questionable, considering what we do to find said unused content in the first place. You might want to be cautious. Just saying.

As for subjects to talk about:
*Super Mario World
*Chrono Trigger (and its prototype)
*Pachi-Com (both the MSX and FC versions)
*Kirby's Adventure
*Moon
*Pokémon Ruby debug
*Daggerfall (maybe, it's not quite polished though)
*Grunty's Revenge Proto page
*The guides section of the site (Might want to get that sound section started first)
MUGEN-tan
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Posted on 12-20-11 07:12:57 AM Link | Quote
Originally posted by divingkataetheweirdo
That's actually a nice idea, Rick. Although, I must say the legality of the whole wiki is questionable, considering what we do to find said unused content in the first place. You might want to be cautious. Just saying.

As for subjects to talk about:
*Super Mario World
*Chrono Trigger (and its prototype)
*Pachi-Com (both the MSX and FC versions)
*Kirby's Adventure
*Moon
*Pokémon Ruby debug
*Daggerfall (maybe, it's not quite polished though)
*Grunty's Revenge Proto page
*The guides section of the site (Might want to get that sound section started first)

About THESE things should be talked about:
-Super Mario World
-Chrono Trigger + Prototype
-The MegaMan 8 Prototypes
-The RockMan X4 Trail Disk
-Kirby and the Amazing Mirror Prototype
-POKéMON Ruby Debug
-Super Smash Bros Brawl
-Kirby's Return to Dreamland + History behind that game
-some pirated game
-The Guidelines of the site
oaa
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Posted on 12-20-11 07:47:39 AM Link | Quote
How about a segment on how unused content is found?
MUGEN-tan
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Posted on 12-20-11 10:02:48 AM Link | Quote
Originally posted by oaa
How about a segment on how unused content is found?

Good idea.
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Posted on 12-20-11 03:36:09 PM Link | Quote
How about we go for wows instead of the dull and boring debug menus. You're going to get nothing but zzzz's if you try to showcase pokemon ruby debug.

I think you should try to find a group that fits with these major categories:

Major Series (Sonic, Mario, Kirby etc)
Eras (Atari, NES, SNES/Genesis, N64/PS1, Contemporary)
Major cuts found within games (Whole modes or portions of the story cut etc)

Avoid any series or console out of the ordinary unless its a sweeping, eye-catching cut. You're not so much there to lecture them on the history of games research, but to get them interested. You want to throw some HUGE things at them.

Suggestions like Brawl would be good, but that section is a mess. I never got around to finishing it and a lot of the information is buried on smash world forums.

Personally, I think Kirby's Return to Dreamland would be a PERFECT choice. Like Mugen-tan pointed out, it has a great history with its various iterations that I think the audience would love, however... The section's incomplete. I mean, I can scrape together some unused music information and maybe a few textures I think are unused, but I'm still waiting on the proper tools to do some definitive research with the game.

For better contemporary titles, why not try NSMBWii or SMG? Treeki and Peardian have done some awesome documentation for those two titles. That, and they're from a major series and some big unused items.

For N64, I can see SM64's findings such as the Blargg and other unused things doing well with that audeince. And the Banjo games or Golden Eye might be good just to throw a bit of 'Murikan in there.

PS1 needs to have the later Megaman X games and what's Otakon without FFVII?

SNES gets FFVI and Chrono Trigger. (SMW is huge, but we may need to cut out some mario, you know?)

Genesis gets Sonic 2 (Beta), hands down.

NES has a lot that I just can't sift through and pick out. Maybe some honorable mentions here? Atari could work just the same way.

Now, I'll be honest... Having now typed this out, its dawning on me that this will not fit into 45 minutes of talking. Its going to need pairing down. In a lot of cases, maybe even dropping the focus on consoles and series and putting a greater emphasis on era. I dunno, that will probably end up being your call. And sure, there are series that probably deserve mentioning like Kirby and Castlevania.

Really, I'm just trying to throw out some heavy hitters as well as appeal to a weeaboo audience that aren't so much in tune with rom hacking, but will be intrigued to find out certain aspects of their favorite games that could have been.

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Posted on 12-20-11 03:52:18 PM (last edited by Shy Mikan at 12-20-11 01:00 PM) Link | Quote
Um...
Add a little about a game with a developer rant though. Those are funny and tend to interest people. Even though nobody even cares about the game itself.


Also you might want to look for those games that have stuff that "what the hell is up with this thing that does nothing" except it did do something-- Chrono Trigger is good for that.
Generally these are less known games, but they will really interest anyone who's played them, who are most likely our main audience and of which an anime convention will be full of.


Some Zelda proto would be good too, everyone likes Zelda and it is pretty interesting given it does show in a somewhat solid way its development. I think. Like how the game was in fact easier before and had different music and no second quest and how all that from interviews is true.

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Posted on 12-20-11 03:54:52 PM Link | Quote
These lines from Atomic Bomberman ought to fill up some time.

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Posted on 12-20-11 04:55:34 PM Link | Quote
If you want some idea of what the most popular stuff on the wiki is, that's what SpecialopularPages is for
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Posted on 12-20-11 05:18:11 PM (last edited by ICEknight at 12-20-11 02:19 PM) Link | Quote
To illustrate the relevance of finding unused content inside the games, you can show the hidden music in Sonic 3D Blast that SEGA ended up using at the boss fights in Sonic 4, and the contents of the SNCBNK files from the old Sonic CD beta, which were recently used to loop the music tracks in the new Sonic CD port.


All of these originally found by yours truly, by the way.
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Posted on 12-20-11 07:35:11 PM Link | Quote
And don't forget the RockMan X4 Trail Disk. It's the find of the year!
Rick
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Posted on 12-21-11 12:30:28 AM Link | Quote
Originally posted by Xkeeper
If you want some idea of what the most popular stuff on the wiki is, that's what SpecialopularPages is for


King Arthur & the Knights of Justice is a best-selling game everyone knows about and loves dearly.

In all seriousness though, great idea! I did wanna talk about the Zelda prototype a bit, since we were the big player in showing off coverage of that, so that'll go in there.

I should probably talk about, for those not really in the know, what exactly a debug mode is and stuff. Thankfully, I don't have to go into detail about what an unused graphic is, or an unused level.

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paulguy

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Posted on 12-21-11 11:45:33 AM Link | Quote
Paulguy's Post configuration
Actually, I think getting people to understand what stuff is and why it's there and all that is very important. But to keep it from being just a dry technical presentation, put examples of specific games within the content. It'd certainly be interesting if ALL you did was go on about certain games, but then it wouldn't provide any really educational benefit. You don't have to go really deep in to technique or anything like that (it'd be beyond the scope of the presentation anyway), but it shouldn't just be all flash; it should be informative.

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Posted on 12-21-11 11:58:24 PM Link | Quote
Originally posted by paulguy
Actually, I think getting people to understand what stuff is and why it's there and all that is very important. But to keep it from being just a dry technical presentation, put examples of specific games within the content. It'd certainly be interesting if ALL you did was go on about certain games, but then it wouldn't provide any really educational benefit. You don't have to go really deep in to technique or anything like that (it'd be beyond the scope of the presentation anyway), but it shouldn't just be all flash; it should be informative.

The only issue I have with this is that when I think Otakon, I see a bunch of weeaboos who enter because it mentions something about "Lost FFVII text" or some other ye olde JRPG. (Taking into account that, yes, classic gamers do go to the con as well and will likely be drawn in with SMB or Kirby as much as the others would like their FF games showcased...) I'm pretty sure the average con goer would be put off if half of your talk is "What is a debug menu" or "What is RAM hacking." Sure, mention such things in short detail, but you're not there to lecture. You're there to impress. It's not like they signed up for a college class after all.

Think of it like a museum display. The people would like to have access to that little sign in front of Tut's sarcophagus, but they're there to SEE Tut's sarcophagus specifically. Give your audience enough of the detailed information so that they can follow along and then get to the meat of the presentation with all the missing graphics, models, game modes, etc. Afterwards, they can always ask about those things if there's enough interest in it.

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Rick
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Posted on 12-22-11 03:19:19 AM Link | Quote
Well then that makes the Final Fantasy VII debug mode a definite thing to add into it.

I could spend forty-five minutes on that thing alone however. So I'll probably limit it to doing a couple of things, such as sticking Aeris in your party where she doesn't belong (to make people HAPPY DA), and maybe a few little other tidbits.

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Posted on 12-22-11 07:59:47 PM Link | Quote
I can assure you, good sir. That will get you laughs. That's also a fine example of how to not be boring with a debug menu I guess.

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Posted on 12-23-11 07:32:33 AM (last edited by Celice at 12-30-11 06:41 PM) Link | Quote
I had a nice large reply, but then it got ated somehow

Skip all the boring summary stuffs, and go straight for the interesting, applicable changes and things left in the game. Things which the audience can relate to in their own experiences--like the unused bike thing, or the colisieum in Chrono Trigger. Things which could have altered their way of playing the game, that they can relate to. Also exciting potential interest, like the Blarg in Super Mario 64. The old level information in Super Mario RPG is especially interesting because you can match the data still in the game with old scans, which show an entirely (yet still similar) game, involving knights and Mario and Peach in a prison.

Goldeneye has tons of this potential. Perfect Dark too, and all the Rare games pretty much. Go for big games that everyone's played and can relate to.

EDIT: Gametrailers has a small series called PopFiction which sometimes explores unused content that is rumored to be available, but normally unattainable in various games. It's usually high-rated by fans. You can take a look at them if you want to see how some people respond to how GameTrailers exploers unused content.

http://www.gametrailers.com/video/episode-19-pop-fiction/725398
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Posted on 12-24-11 07:59:53 AM Link | Quote
Definitely show that one developer rant, that's just classic. I would go through games that had a lot of unused content that actually kinda illustrate development history...Donkey Kong Country was a good one there.
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Posted on 02-19-12 05:22:43 AM Link | Quote
This sounds like a lot of fun! I think Final Fantasy VII and Ocarina of Time are shoe-ins for how much content was cut and changed during development and how much can still be found in both games. They're also extremely popular titles, so they're sure to catch the attention and fascination of nearly all game fans.

Haha, I wish I could present with you! I can talk for hours about this stuff.
Rick
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Posted on 02-19-12 05:37:28 AM Link | Quote
I think for when I do this panel, I'd like to have someone who can be present with me who can explain all the code stuff and what-not that I'd rather not try to talk out of my ass and sound like I know what I'm talking about. Especially for doing a Q&A session (and I know people will have questions) and just to address confusing points in general in layman's terms.

I'm just not sure who'd join me as a co-host for this sort of thing. :X

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line 276 column 63 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 276 column 112 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 276 column 162 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 277 column 11 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 287 column 15 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 302 column 22 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 302 column 63 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 302 column 112 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 302 column 162 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 313 column 15 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 328 column 11 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 329 column 23 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 329 column 64 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 329 column 113 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 329 column 163 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 330 column 11 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 340 column 15 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 375 column 3138 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 383 column 23 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 383 column 64 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 383 column 113 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 383 column 163 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 384 column 11 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 394 column 15 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 408 column 1318 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 408 column 1480 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 416 column 22 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 416 column 63 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 416 column 112 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 416 column 161 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 417 column 11 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 427 column 15 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 434 column 238 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 442 column 23 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 442 column 64 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 442 column 113 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 442 column 163 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 443 column 11 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 453 column 15 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 460 column 162 - Warning: <img> proprietary attribute value "absmiddle"
line 460 column 162 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 460 column 232 - Warning: <img> proprietary attribute value "absmiddle"
line 460 column 232 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 468 column 22 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 468 column 63 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 468 column 112 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 468 column 162 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 479 column 15 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 489 column 460 - Warning: <img> proprietary attribute value "absmiddle"
line 489 column 460 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 497 column 22 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 497 column 63 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 497 column 112 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 497 column 162 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 508 column 15 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 523 column 23 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 523 column 64 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 523 column 113 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 523 column 163 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 524 column 11 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 534 column 15 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 541 column 238 - Warning: <img> proprietary attribute value "absmiddle"
line 541 column 238 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 541 column 308 - Warning: <img> proprietary attribute value "absmiddle"
line 541 column 308 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 543 column 487 - Warning: <img> proprietary attribute value "absmiddle"
line 543 column 487 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 547 column 959 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 554 column 11 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 555 column 22 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 555 column 63 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 555 column 112 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 555 column 161 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 556 column 11 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 566 column 15 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 580 column 11 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 581 column 23 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 581 column 64 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 581 column 113 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 581 column 163 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 582 column 11 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 592 column 15 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 602 column 2178 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 610 column 23 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 610 column 64 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 610 column 113 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 610 column 163 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 611 column 11 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 621 column 15 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 630 column 450 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 637 column 11 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 638 column 23 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 638 column 64 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 638 column 113 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 638 column 163 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 639 column 11 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 649 column 15 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 656 column 558 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 664 column 22 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 664 column 63 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 664 column 112 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 664 column 162 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 675 column 15 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 682 column 129 - Warning: <img> proprietary attribute value "absmiddle"
line 682 column 129 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 697 column 11 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 698 column 22 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 698 column 63 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 698 column 112 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 698 column 162 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 709 column 15 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 723 column 11 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 724 column 22 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 724 column 63 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 724 column 112 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 724 column 161 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 725 column 11 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 735 column 15 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 752 column 23 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 752 column 64 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 752 column 113 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 752 column 163 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 753 column 11 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 763 column 15 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 772 column 559 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 784 column 44 - Warning: <img> proprietary attribute value "absmiddle"
line 784 column 142 - Warning: <img> proprietary attribute value "absmiddle"
line 784 column 246 - Warning: <img> proprietary attribute value "absmiddle"
line 793 column 25 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 798 column 267 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 149 column 50 - Warning: trimming empty <font>
line 599 column 312 - Warning: trimming empty <font>
line 778 column 17 - Warning: trimming empty <tr>
line 781 column 50 - Warning: trimming empty <font>
line 125 column 68 - Warning: <nobr> is not approved by W3C
line 141 column 68 - Warning: <nobr> is not approved by W3C
line 177 column 27 - Warning: <nobr> is not approved by W3C
line 207 column 27 - Warning: <nobr> is not approved by W3C
line 244 column 27 - Warning: <nobr> is not approved by W3C
line 292 column 27 - Warning: <nobr> is not approved by W3C
line 318 column 27 - Warning: <nobr> is not approved by W3C
line 345 column 27 - Warning: <nobr> is not approved by W3C
line 347 column 74 - Warning: <table> proprietary attribute "height"
line 399 column 27 - Warning: <nobr> is not approved by W3C
line 401 column 74 - Warning: <table> proprietary attribute "height"
line 408 column 1292 - Warning: <marquee> is not approved by W3C
line 432 column 27 - Warning: <nobr> is not approved by W3C
line 458 column 27 - Warning: <nobr> is not approved by W3C
line 484 column 27 - Warning: <nobr> is not approved by W3C
line 513 column 27 - Warning: <nobr> is not approved by W3C
line 539 column 27 - Warning: <nobr> is not approved by W3C
line 571 column 27 - Warning: <nobr> is not approved by W3C
line 597 column 27 - Warning: <nobr> is not approved by W3C
line 599 column 74 - Warning: <table> proprietary attribute "height"
line 626 column 27 - Warning: <nobr> is not approved by W3C
line 654 column 27 - Warning: <nobr> is not approved by W3C
line 656 column 74 - Warning: <table> proprietary attribute "height"
line 680 column 27 - Warning: <nobr> is not approved by W3C
line 714 column 27 - Warning: <nobr> is not approved by W3C
line 740 column 27 - Warning: <nobr> is not approved by W3C
line 768 column 27 - Warning: <nobr> is not approved by W3C
Info: Document content looks like HTML5
Info: No system identifier in emitted doctype
Tidy found 322 warnings and 0 errors!


The alt attribute should be used to give a short description
of an image; longer descriptions should be given with the
longdesc attribute which takes a URL linked to the description.
These measures are needed for people using non-graphical browsers.

For further advice on how to make your pages accessible
see http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL.
You are recommended to use CSS to specify the font and
properties such as its size and color. This will reduce
the size of HTML files and make them easier to maintain
compared with using <FONT> elements.

You are recommended to use CSS to control line wrapping.
Use "white-space: nowrap" to inhibit wrapping in place
of inserting <NOBR>...</NOBR> into the markup.

About HTML Tidy: https://github.com/htacg/tidy-html5
Bug reports and comments: https://github.com/htacg/tidy-html5/issues
Official mailing list: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-htacg/
Latest HTML specification: http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec-author-view/
Validate your HTML documents: http://validator.w3.org/nu/
Lobby your company to join the W3C: http://www.w3.org/Consortium

Do you speak a language other than English, or a different variant of
English? Consider helping us to localize HTML Tidy. For details please see
https://github.com/htacg/tidy-html5/blob/master/README/LOCALIZE.md