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Abaxa
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Posted on 01-26-11 09:39:25 PM Link | Quote
I dumped all the plain text I could find from Vandal Hearts today. Blog entry.

I did the same for Beyond the Beyond awhile back. Blog entry
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Posted on 01-27-11 01:01:39 PM Link | Quote
I would definitely be for having a section/area/wiki dedicated to game development history. I actually run a site along with a friend which extensively covers beta content from Pokemon Gold/Silver, as well as its own development history. I'm proud to say we have quite a bit of exclusive content, though due to the...less than honorable nature of the Pokemon web community, I don't remember if we ever got around to putting it all up
Aeonic Butterfly
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Posted on 01-27-11 06:34:33 PM Link | Quote
If the subpage thing is a go, can I go ahead and start organizing the Zelda 64 prerelease stuff? Or shouldI hold off? =)
Liliana
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Posted on 01-27-11 07:18:28 PM Link | Quote
We should first plan out the technical details. For one, are we going to get a new namespace for this stuff, like was done with Notes and Proto?

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Aeonic Butterfly
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Posted on 01-27-11 07:23:48 PM Link | Quote
Speculation A-go-go? To be honest, no idea exactly what to call it. Past Peeking? =P

(And seriously, if this is given a go, is it okay to note some of the rooms that also appeared in the Zelda 64 debug (Room 120, 121 are seen in the magazine pics as a Stalfos fight and a supposed temple thing, then the Stalfos Bossfight, from the A+B Era)
YK

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Posted on 01-27-11 07:24:51 PM Link | Quote
Originally posted by Prince Kassad
We should first plan out the technical details. For one, are we going to get a new namespace for this stuff, like was done with Notes and Proto?


I would certainly hope so. As BMF once said in a post -- and with which I wholeheartedly agree -- sites with "development notes" and stuff like that are a dime a dozen, and what makes TCRF unique is its "still in the game-only" unused content. I'm against this idea on the whole, but if we must include it, I'd rather not see it cluttering the main pages.
GlitterBerri

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Posted on 01-27-11 08:21:06 PM (last edited by GlitterBerri at 01-27-11 05:25 PM) Link | Quote
What's wrong with "Development History"?

Originally posted by YK
Originally posted by Prince Kassad
We should first plan out the technical details. For one, are we going to get a new namespace for this stuff, like was done with Notes and Proto?


I would certainly hope so. As BMF once said in a post -- and with which I wholeheartedly agree -- sites with "development notes" and stuff like that are a dime a dozen, and what makes TCRF unique is its "still in the game-only" unused content. I'm against this idea on the whole, but if we must include it, I'd rather not see it cluttering the main pages.


There are many sites that contain the development history for games. Unfortunately, they tend to focus on a single game or series and do not act as a wikipedia like the one we have now, something I think would be a useful resource for the gaming community.

Anyway, we can always try it and see how it works out. If it's really not working, we can take another vote and go back to the way things were before. How about a 2 month trial period or something?
YK

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Posted on 01-27-11 08:30:01 PM (last edited by YK at 01-27-11 05:32 PM) Link | Quote
Originally posted by GlitterBerri
What's wrong with "Development History"?


At face value, nothing. However...

Originally posted by Waffle Ryebread
The Cutting Room Floor has always strived to be different from other sites by showcasing unused/prototype content that still exists in available ROMs or disc images. Because of this, I ask that you not submit videos or magazine/brochure screenshots of prototype or unreleased games, unless you are using them to illustrate how something in a ROM was used at some point in the development process.

It's incredibly disappointing to go to a site like X-Cult, see a section marked "unused levels," and click it only to be greeted with a grainy black-and-white magazine shot of something that sort of resembles an unused level, without any real data to back it up. How can you even be sure that level isn't just a mockup, pieced together from graphics that never really existed in a ROM? (If you're familiar with the Sonic 2 "Dust Hill Zone" fiasco, you know what I'm talking about.)

Sites like that are a dime a dozen, and while it's interesting to see what may have been, quite frankly I'm growing tired of rampant speculation and rumors. I much prefer cold, hard data: stuff I can see and hear for myself, stuff that I can poke with a hex editor and see what makes it tick. Real proof of what may have been.


Granted, this was all posted like a year ago, but his point still stands, as it *is* difficult to discern from grainy screenshots just what is and isn't actual unused/early developmental content. There are many mock-up screenshots out there, which were never intended to actually be a part of the game, and are just showcasing something. The beauty of TCRF is that everything on the page is *still in the game* in some form or another, and can be brought to the surface in some manner (hacking, editors, graphics/text viewers, etc).

Be that as it may...

Originally posted by Waffle Ryebread
In the future, if the demand is great enough, we may create a separate section devoted to preview videos and screenshots (The Speculation Bucket? ), but for now, I'd rather not clutter up the wiki with them.


So, there you go. The idea isn't a bad one in and of itself, but it *needs* to be put in its own section. Moreover, I have this nagging personal fear that allowing such content could easily overshadow the rest of the site, as everyone scrambles to upload every magazine screenshot, developer's interview (just because one of the CT devs, for instance, said Gaspar was planned to be a playable character, doesn't mean it's *true*; he could've just been joking, after all) and declares "OMG BETA CONTENT THIS WAS GOING TO BE IN THE GAME OMFG!"

Basically, to keep such sections from becoming a mess of utterly horrific proportions, we'd probably want to stick with *verifiable* "in-development" info. Info which isn't always easy to obtain; and we've already expressed disdain at loading pages with [citation needed] links.
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Posted on 01-27-11 09:14:40 PM (last edited by Gig at 01-27-11 06:16 PM) Link | Quote
I see nothing wrong with having a separate psuedonamespace like Proto: for development history.

Namely, "Development:". You know, like that other wiki that we all love.

As long as the content is kept separate and speculation is kept minimal it will be fine.

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Posted on 01-27-11 09:28:32 PM (last edited by Teflon at 01-27-11 06:29 PM) Link | Quote
Frankly, I don't think the wiki being flooded by development history crap will be as big of a problem as people think it will be. Outside of a few games like OoT, you can't chart a game's complete development history, so I don't expect to see things like third rate SNES/Genesis games having an enormous development page.

The worse case scenario with this would be people uploading magazine scans and pointing out really minute details, like a character's leg being a few pixels shorter.
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Posted on 01-27-11 09:48:26 PM Link | Quote
Originally posted by Teflon
The worse case scenario with this would be people uploading magazine scans and pointing out really minute details, like a character's leg being a few pixels shorter.


Then we need to have some sort of guidelines for "developmental changes". Like, no particularly nitpicky ones as in your example. Characters, objects, areas, etc. sporting entirely different looks earlier in development? Interesting. An early song having three different notes? Not so much.
Liliana
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Posted on 01-27-11 09:51:17 PM Link | Quote
People should really use common sense. Then we would not need any rules.

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Teflon
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Posted on 01-27-11 09:54:11 PM (last edited by Teflon at 01-27-11 06:54 PM) Link | Quote
Originally posted by Prince Kassad
People should really use common sense. Then we would not need any rules.


That'd be nice, but the world is filled with idiots.

Originally posted by Gig
Then we need to have some sort of guidelines for "developmental changes". Like, no particularly nitpicky ones as in your example. Characters, objects, areas, etc. sporting entirely different looks earlier in development? Interesting. An early song having three different notes? Not so much.


Sounds good to me.
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Posted on 01-27-11 09:54:12 PM Link | Quote
Originally posted by Prince Kassad
People should really use common sense. Then we would not need any rules.


If common sense is so rare, why do they call it *common* sense?
Flying Omelette
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Posted on 01-27-11 09:54:36 PM Link | Quote
Be careful about expecting people to use common sense. I learned that the hard way when I was running that Cameos Database thing on my site.

Whatever decision you make about this is up to you guys, but I'm personally only going to continue to add "developmental" stuff if there's absolute evidence in the game itself that it was going to be in there, but was removed. Ie, Blackwing's name being in the Knights of Justice ROM and the overwhelming evidence in Kingsley's Adventure that Kingsley was originally supposed to be a rabbit and not a fox.

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Teflon
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Posted on 01-27-11 10:08:16 PM Link | Quote
Originally posted by Flying Omelette
Be careful about expecting people to use common sense. I learned that the hard way when I was running that Cameos Database thing on my site.


I can attest to that. I used to be an admin on a very large video game wiki (well, more on an extended break right now), and you would not believe how many people went against things that I tough were common sense. I had one guy ask what the numbers next to the "damage" portion on weapon infoboxes stood for, even though I thought it was extremely obvious.

Whatever decision you make about this is up to you guys, but I'm personally only going to continue to add "developmental" stuff if there's absolute evidence in the game itself that it was going to be in there, but was removed. Ie, Blackwing's name being in the Knights of Justice ROM and the overwhelming evidence in Kingsley's Adventure that Kingsley was originally supposed to be a rabbit and not a fox.


That's been my rule with adding "developmental" stuff as well.
Abaxa
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Posted on 01-27-11 10:21:10 PM (last edited by Abaxa at 01-27-11 07:32 PM) Link | Quote
With documenting prototypes some development history is inevitable. Documenting reasons why things were changed would fit in, in that sense.

EDIT: Well I guess that should have gone in the thread Teflon dedicated to the issue. Oh well, I'll say no more on the subject here.

In on-topic news, I've been doing some savestate hacking for Dark Wizard since last night. It's been slow and the multiple processors means the game uses some of the same variables in multiple places where a game on the Genesis would just use one address. Behold, my non-leetness in Armer IX temporarily morphed into a dragon type he can't summon:



So far nothing out of the ordinary has turned up but if it does I'll edit again.
Aeonic Butterfly
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Posted on 01-28-11 12:07:33 AM Link | Quote
If we were to just put up screens that were relevant to the final ROM? (Again, Rooms 121 and 120 to the Debug, and Ganon's Castle appearing in A+B Development)
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Posted on 01-28-11 05:05:42 AM Link | Quote
I'm only going to okay this if:

A) The content has its own dedicated namespace, like Notes: and Proto: (unused stuff remaining in the game always has the highest priority and should always be the first thing you see)
B) We develop some heavy-duty rules/guidelines and actually enforce them

I'm mostly worried about B) since we already have a crapload of sub-par pages on the wiki that haven't been touched in months. :|

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Abaxa
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Posted on 01-29-11 01:15:06 AM Link | Quote
Well I managed to locate where spells and inventory are stored in RAM - the main storage point (the entire block of data is duplicated for use in battle menus and towns). I haven't tackled inventory yet but the domain spell list has already yielded several glitchy spells that aren't used by any of the rulers. All the spells have translated menu names although Beast Voice somehow ended up as Beast Talk.
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Jul - The Cutting Room Floor - Weird Discoveries New poll - New thread - New reply


Rusted Logic
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line 161 column 112 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 161 column 162 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 172 column 15 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 188 column 11 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 189 column 22 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 189 column 63 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 189 column 112 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 189 column 162 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 200 column 15 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 207 column 508 - Warning: <img> proprietary attribute value "absmiddle"
line 207 column 508 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 214 column 15 - Warning: <img> proprietary attribute value "absmiddle"
line 214 column 15 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 214 column 58 - Warning: <img> proprietary attribute value "absmiddle"
line 214 column 58 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 214 column 101 - Warning: <img> proprietary attribute value "absmiddle"
line 214 column 101 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 214 column 144 - Warning: <img> proprietary attribute value "absmiddle"
line 214 column 144 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 215 column 22 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 215 column 63 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 215 column 112 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 215 column 162 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 226 column 15 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 241 column 23 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 241 column 64 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 252 column 15 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 259 column 614 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 266 column 15 - Warning: <img> proprietary attribute value "absmiddle"
line 266 column 15 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 266 column 58 - Warning: <img> proprietary attribute value "absmiddle"
line 266 column 58 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 266 column 101 - Warning: <img> proprietary attribute value "absmiddle"
line 266 column 101 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 266 column 144 - Warning: <img> proprietary attribute value "absmiddle"
line 266 column 144 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 267 column 22 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 267 column 63 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 267 column 112 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 267 column 162 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 278 column 15 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 295 column 23 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 295 column 64 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 296 column 11 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 306 column 15 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 322 column 11 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 323 column 22 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 323 column 63 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 323 column 112 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 323 column 161 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 324 column 11 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 334 column 15 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 357 column 23 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 357 column 64 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 358 column 11 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 368 column 15 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 389 column 2416 - Warning: <img> proprietary attribute value "absmiddle"
line 389 column 2416 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 401 column 23 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 401 column 64 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 401 column 113 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 401 column 163 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 402 column 11 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 412 column 15 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 419 column 333 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 423 column 1063 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 431 column 22 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 431 column 63 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 431 column 111 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 431 column 161 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 432 column 11 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 442 column 15 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 459 column 23 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 459 column 64 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 460 column 11 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 470 column 15 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 488 column 23 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 488 column 64 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 499 column 15 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 506 column 542 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 514 column 22 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 514 column 63 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 514 column 111 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 514 column 161 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 515 column 11 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 525 column 15 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 534 column 306 - Warning: <img> proprietary attribute value "absmiddle"
line 534 column 306 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 546 column 23 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 546 column 64 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 547 column 11 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 557 column 15 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 574 column 22 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 574 column 63 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 574 column 112 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 574 column 162 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 575 column 11 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 585 column 15 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 594 column 699 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 594 column 851 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 594 column 1002 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 603 column 22 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 603 column 63 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 603 column 111 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 603 column 161 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 604 column 11 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 614 column 15 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 635 column 22 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 635 column 63 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 635 column 112 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 635 column 162 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 646 column 15 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 659 column 803 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 668 column 15 - Warning: <img> proprietary attribute value "absmiddle"
line 668 column 15 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 668 column 58 - Warning: <img> proprietary attribute value "absmiddle"
line 668 column 58 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 668 column 101 - Warning: <img> proprietary attribute value "absmiddle"
line 668 column 101 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 668 column 144 - Warning: <img> proprietary attribute value "absmiddle"
line 668 column 144 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 669 column 22 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 669 column 63 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 669 column 112 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 669 column 162 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 680 column 15 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 694 column 11 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 695 column 23 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 695 column 64 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 695 column 113 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 695 column 163 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 696 column 11 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 706 column 15 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 726 column 22 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 726 column 63 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 726 column 112 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 726 column 162 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 737 column 15 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 753 column 44 - Warning: <img> proprietary attribute value "absmiddle"
line 753 column 142 - Warning: <img> proprietary attribute value "absmiddle"
line 753 column 246 - Warning: <img> proprietary attribute value "absmiddle"
line 762 column 25 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 767 column 267 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 747 column 17 - Warning: trimming empty <tr>
line 125 column 68 - Warning: <nobr> is not approved by W3C
line 141 column 68 - Warning: <nobr> is not approved by W3C
line 177 column 27 - Warning: <nobr> is not approved by W3C
line 205 column 27 - Warning: <nobr> is not approved by W3C
line 231 column 27 - Warning: <nobr> is not approved by W3C
line 257 column 27 - Warning: <nobr> is not approved by W3C
line 259 column 74 - Warning: <div> proprietary attribute "width"
line 259 column 431 - Warning: <div> proprietary attribute "width"
line 283 column 27 - Warning: <nobr> is not approved by W3C
line 311 column 27 - Warning: <nobr> is not approved by W3C
line 339 column 27 - Warning: <nobr> is not approved by W3C
line 373 column 27 - Warning: <nobr> is not approved by W3C
line 417 column 27 - Warning: <nobr> is not approved by W3C
line 447 column 27 - Warning: <nobr> is not approved by W3C
line 475 column 27 - Warning: <nobr> is not approved by W3C
line 504 column 27 - Warning: <nobr> is not approved by W3C
line 506 column 74 - Warning: <div> proprietary attribute "width"
line 506 column 359 - Warning: <div> proprietary attribute "width"
line 530 column 27 - Warning: <nobr> is not approved by W3C
line 562 column 27 - Warning: <nobr> is not approved by W3C
line 590 column 27 - Warning: <nobr> is not approved by W3C
line 619 column 27 - Warning: <nobr> is not approved by W3C
line 651 column 27 - Warning: <nobr> is not approved by W3C
line 685 column 27 - Warning: <nobr> is not approved by W3C
line 711 column 27 - Warning: <nobr> is not approved by W3C
line 742 column 27 - Warning: <nobr> is not approved by W3C
Info: Document content looks like HTML5
Info: No system identifier in emitted doctype
Tidy found 340 warnings and 0 errors!


The alt attribute should be used to give a short description
of an image; longer descriptions should be given with the
longdesc attribute which takes a URL linked to the description.
These measures are needed for people using non-graphical browsers.

For further advice on how to make your pages accessible
see http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL.
You are recommended to use CSS to specify the font and
properties such as its size and color. This will reduce
the size of HTML files and make them easier to maintain
compared with using <FONT> elements.

You are recommended to use CSS to control line wrapping.
Use "white-space: nowrap" to inhibit wrapping in place
of inserting <NOBR>...</NOBR> into the markup.

About HTML Tidy: https://github.com/htacg/tidy-html5
Bug reports and comments: https://github.com/htacg/tidy-html5/issues
Official mailing list: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-htacg/
Latest HTML specification: http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec-author-view/
Validate your HTML documents: http://validator.w3.org/nu/
Lobby your company to join the W3C: http://www.w3.org/Consortium

Do you speak a language other than English, or a different variant of
English? Consider helping us to localize HTML Tidy. For details please see
https://github.com/htacg/tidy-html5/blob/master/README/LOCALIZE.md