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Jul - The Cutting Room Floor - Page layout proposal New poll - New thread - New reply
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Teflon
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Posted on 01-20-11 08:47:05 PM Link | Quote
I've been thinking about how to make certain pages look less like a clusterfuck and I came up with a basic layout for pages.

Basically, everything would be divided into sections like "characters", "graphics". Within those sections would be subsections showing off unused content, like "Terra Dancing" under the graphics section or "Megabuster Sword" under the "weapons" section, etc; you get the idea. This would make it easier to find exactly what sort of unused stuff you're looking for on a page. It would be used even if there was one subsection for something just for neatness' sake.

An example of what I'm talking about can be found here.

What do you guys think; good idea, bad idea, could be improved, dumb as hell?
GlitterBerri

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Posted on 01-20-11 10:22:19 PM Link | Quote
Sure, seems like a good idea to me. I had to laugh at that page, though. =)

What about when some games have sub-pages with a huge amount of material? (Example here.) Usually the sub-page directory is at the top of the main page for that game. Will we be linking to the sub-page under the appropriate heading now without putting them all at the top? I think I'd like that better, actually.
Teflon
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Posted on 01-20-11 10:30:46 PM Link | Quote
Hmmm, I dunno. On one hand I like them being on the top because they tend to have the most interesting information, but placing links to them in their appropriate place looks better from an organizational POV. Let's see what others think.
YK

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Posted on 01-20-11 10:49:20 PM Link | Quote
This sounds a bit too "Wikipedia" for my tastes. I don't really mind pages not having a hard-and-fast "order", particularly because there's so much that could conceivably go on a page...
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Posted on 01-20-11 10:51:12 PM Link | Quote

I think it looks better to have the links for subpages at the top, rather than being moved to categories... especially if a whole category is a subpage, then you have a category link in the contents that just leads to a subpage link, which seems a little silly.

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Teflon
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Posted on 01-20-11 11:04:12 PM Link | Quote
Originally posted by YK
This sounds a bit too "Wikipedia" for my tastes. I don't really mind pages not having a hard-and-fast "order", particularly because there's so much that could conceivably go on a page...


It's more of a suggestion than a rule. It's designed so that you don't end up with clusterfuck pages like the Pokemon Red & Blue and the SM64 pages that have sections focusing on one thing, like graphics, scattered around the page.
GlitterBerri

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Posted on 01-20-11 11:08:15 PM Link | Quote
I guess I like the Wikipedia approach where everything is nicely organized at the top and clicking on a category gives you a small summary and a link to a larger page covering the topic in more detail.
Rick
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Posted on 01-21-11 02:41:02 AM Link | Quote
I don't mind a certain amount of clutter, but I kinda like having everything all in one category and not jumping around. Or if something kind of crosses over into two different categories, use that as a transition piece.



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Tauwasser
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Posted on 01-22-11 04:16:24 PM (last edited by Tauwasser at 01-22-11 01:17 PM) Link | Quote
Originally posted by Teflon
It's more of a suggestion than a rule. It's designed so that you don't end up with clusterfuck pages like the Pokemon Red & Blue [...].


Well, I would like to mention that the Red & Blue page is so messy because the games are so messily coded and the whole situation with different releases in different regions is not easily captured.

I tried to mitigate this by crating a common page for RBGY under which content that applies to some or all of these version can be combined, like the info about the Unknown Dungeon, which itself is supposed to be used as a template to insert the content at any given level inside another article, e.g. by using {{:Pokémon RBGY/Unknown Dungeon|level====}}, which translates to a page transclusion of the namespace-less article with level 3 (three equals signs).

I think this approach could potentially be helpful for other video games as well. Instead of creating sub-pages for this relatively small piece of content, one could create a transclusion article, making sure the text is displayed the same everywhere.

As for the rest of this discussion, a large part of clutter stems from people reporting trial-and-error findings. The whole "identifier" business in Red & Blue as well as multiple "if you use gameshark code XYZ to access invalid level data" cheats really don't make up for quality content.

For instance, I hope a good example is the Pokémon Gold and Silver article. You will ― or so I hope ― only find relevant information there to access relevant data. Special explanation (for instance the tileset naming scheme employed by me, the uploader of the tileset images) is on a special page not cluttering the rest of the article. The same goes for all offsets and ASM code. Single offsets (like the text offsets) can simply be skipped, as can the information if routines have been out-commented. A bigger chunk of ASM went into a sub-page. I hoped to achieve creation of an informative article whilst preserving relevant info for anybody talented enough to look at the actual ASM coding and data.

Generally, while creating and editing said article, I have had occasional doubts as to how technically deep articles should get in general. So far, nobody much of anything claiming irrelevance. A few guidelines would be good for that matter.

Also, while it was low-key for a while, I still am very much in favor of creating a template as discussed here. While I certainly do not want to introduce Wikipedian quality assurance standards in here, I see much uninformed information floating around.
I understand that most 3d-titles, for instance LoZ titles on N64, are very hard to debug/hack or get the information out of as a person simply interested in the matter, but not deeply immersed into it. Nevertheless, IMO this doesn't make up for guesswork sold as fact.

cYa,

Tauwasser

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Tauwasser
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Posted on 01-25-11 05:49:30 AM Link | Quote
See, and stuff like this is the reason I want to have that "unverified" box. This is likely just a bug. There are no connections and that's why it is pulling up random data as connection data. There is nothing to prove beyond that there is a bug that makes this happen. Much less to post videos of this discovery on Youtube and proclaim the programmers had this in mind all along...

cYa,

Tauwasser

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Nicole

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Posted on 01-25-11 12:09:49 PM (last edited by Imajin at 01-25-11 09:10 AM) Link | Quote

Originally posted by Tauwasser
See, and stuff like this is the reason I want to have that "unverified" box. This is likely just a bug. There are no connections and that's why it is pulling up random data as connection data. There is nothing to prove beyond that there is a bug that makes this happen. Much less to post videos of this discovery on Youtube and proclaim the programmers had this in mind all along...

cYa,

Tauwasser

In Megaman 1 each level is paired with another level for things like room ordering; this is possibly the case in Megaman 2 as well, so this might be more than an "arbitrary glitch", but I'm not sure that it's really worth noting as well... it's just how the levels are stored. I agree that there should be an unverified box type of thing, though...

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Rick
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Posted on 01-26-11 01:38:25 AM Link | Quote
It actually is true that the levels are smashed together like that. It's mostly just to save space on the cartridge. I used to get into Dr. Wily 2's level with ease on an old NES cart right from Air Man's room by total glitch accident. If you want verification on that fact, there it is.

I even mentioned it long, long ago on David Wonn's glitch site.

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Tauwasser
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Posted on 01-26-11 04:24:45 AM Link | Quote
Originally posted by Rick
It actually is true that the levels are smashed together like that. It's mostly just to save space on the cartridge. I used to get into Dr. Wily 2's level with ease on an old NES cart right from Air Man's room by total glitch accident. If you want verification on that fact, there it is.

I even mentioned it long, long ago on David Wonn's glitch site.


I don't doubt that the layout is there to save place. However, the article gives undue attention to this bug. It seems to suggest the programmers planned this.
IMO it might be mentioned, however, documenting every bug with youtube videos and other "evidence" is pretty much over-the-top, considering it's just a neglect on the programmers' part.

cYa,

Tauwasser

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TomoAlien
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Posted on 01-26-11 10:47:19 AM Link | Quote
Originally posted by Tauwasser
Originally posted by Rick
It actually is true that the levels are smashed together like that. It's mostly just to save space on the cartridge. I used to get into Dr. Wily 2's level with ease on an old NES cart right from Air Man's room by total glitch accident. If you want verification on that fact, there it is.

I even mentioned it long, long ago on David Wonn's glitch site.


I don't doubt that the layout is there to save place. However, the article gives undue attention to this bug. It seems to suggest the programmers planned this.
IMO it might be mentioned, however, documenting every bug with youtube videos and other "evidence" is pretty much over-the-top, considering it's just a neglect on the programmers' part.

cYa,

Tauwasser


I agree with you. This wiki was made for unused stuff, not for glitches. I wish there was a game glitches wiki, though...
Taryn

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Posted on 01-26-11 02:06:03 PM Link | Quote
Originally posted by TomoAlien
I wish there was a game glitches wiki, though...


Actually, there is a video game glitches wiki.

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TKB Super Mario Bros. • TKB Super Mario Bros., Volume II
Rachel Mae

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Posted on 01-26-11 09:31:33 PM Link | Quote
Originally posted by Sonic Adventure page
The following link is an external text file containing descriptions of glitches in this game.

http://www.geocities.com/rattleman123456/sonic_adventure_glitch_guide_4.75.txt
See, hotlinking to files on a wiki is a great idea! :specialed:

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Nicole

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Posted on 01-26-11 09:38:13 PM Link | Quote

Originally posted by Waffle Ryebread
Originally posted by Sonic Adventure page
The following link is an external text file containing descriptions of glitches in this game.

http://www.geocities.com/rattleman123456/sonic_adventure_glitch_guide_4.75.txt
See, hotlinking to files on a wiki is a great idea! :specialed:

Yahoo! paid over $3 billion for GeoCities, they're one of the largest free hosts on the internet, you think they'd really just shut it down? Come on. If it's really an issue I can put it on my AOL Hometown.

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Taryn

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Posted on 01-26-11 09:48:04 PM Link | Quote
Um, Imajin, Geocities did shut down

Which is why we really should try to host as much as we can ourselves, rather than leaving a trail of broken images as free hosts fold or delete Web sites.

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Rachel Mae

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Posted on 01-27-11 01:54:06 AM Link | Quote
I'm pretty sure he was joking...

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Liliana
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Posted on 01-27-11 01:30:14 PM Link | Quote
Though Geocities Japan still exists and is used a lot...

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Jul - The Cutting Room Floor - Page layout proposal New poll - New thread - New reply


Rusted Logic
Acmlmboard - commit 47be4dc [2021-08-23]
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line 288 column 15 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 295 column 163 - Warning: <table> attribute "cellpadding" has invalid value "2px"
line 295 column 564 - Warning: <img> proprietary attribute value "absmiddle"
line 295 column 564 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 295 column 687 - Warning: <td> attribute "height" has invalid value "128px"
line 303 column 22 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 303 column 63 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 303 column 111 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 303 column 161 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 304 column 11 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 314 column 15 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 330 column 11 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 331 column 22 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 331 column 63 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 331 column 112 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 331 column 161 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 332 column 11 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 342 column 15 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 357 column 23 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 357 column 64 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 357 column 113 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 357 column 163 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 358 column 11 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 368 column 15 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 377 column 334 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 385 column 22 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 385 column 63 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 385 column 111 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 385 column 161 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 386 column 11 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 396 column 15 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 407 column 569 - Warning: <a> escaping malformed URI reference
line 422 column 3341 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 430 column 22 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 430 column 63 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 430 column 111 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 430 column 161 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 431 column 11 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 441 column 15 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 452 column 568 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 459 column 11 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 460 column 23 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 460 column 64 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 460 column 113 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 460 column 163 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 461 column 11 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 471 column 15 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 478 column 163 - Warning: <table> attribute "cellpadding" has invalid value "2px"
line 483 column 1283 - Warning: <td> attribute "height" has invalid value "128px"
line 491 column 23 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 491 column 64 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 491 column 113 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 491 column 163 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 492 column 11 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 502 column 15 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 511 column 464 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 519 column 22 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 519 column 63 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 519 column 111 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 519 column 161 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 520 column 11 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 530 column 15 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 546 column 939 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 554 column 22 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 554 column 63 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 554 column 112 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 554 column 162 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 565 column 15 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 572 column 162 - Warning: <font> attribute "color" had invalid value "ffffff" and has been replaced
line 572 column 194 - Warning: <font> attribute "color" had invalid value "ffffff" and has been replaced
line 572 column 272 - Warning: <font> attribute "color" had invalid value "ffffff" and has been replaced
line 572 column 333 - Warning: <font> attribute "color" had invalid value "ffffff" and has been replaced
line 575 column 1 - Warning: <font> attribute "color" had invalid value "ffffff" and has been replaced
line 582 column 1 - Warning: <font> attribute "color" had invalid value "ffffff" and has been replaced
line 591 column 23 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 591 column 64 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 591 column 113 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 591 column 163 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 592 column 11 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 602 column 15 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 611 column 907 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 612 column 1216 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 619 column 11 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 620 column 23 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 620 column 64 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 620 column 113 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 620 column 163 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 621 column 11 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 631 column 15 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 647 column 11 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 648 column 23 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 648 column 64 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 648 column 113 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 648 column 163 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 649 column 11 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 659 column 15 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 666 column 163 - Warning: <table> attribute "cellpadding" has invalid value "2px"
line 669 column 1040 - Warning: <td> attribute "height" has invalid value "128px"
line 677 column 23 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 677 column 64 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 677 column 113 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 677 column 163 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 678 column 11 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 688 column 15 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 695 column 583 - Warning: <img> proprietary attribute value "absmiddle"
line 695 column 583 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 695 column 638 - Warning: <img> proprietary attribute value "absmiddle"
line 695 column 638 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 697 column 956 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 698 column 1265 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 705 column 11 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 706 column 23 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 706 column 64 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 706 column 113 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 706 column 163 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 707 column 11 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 717 column 15 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 724 column 2360 - Warning: <img> proprietary attribute value "absmiddle"
line 724 column 2360 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 732 column 23 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 732 column 64 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 743 column 15 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 750 column 526 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 759 column 44 - Warning: <img> proprietary attribute value "absmiddle"
line 759 column 142 - Warning: <img> proprietary attribute value "absmiddle"
line 759 column 246 - Warning: <img> proprietary attribute value "absmiddle"
line 768 column 25 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 773 column 267 - Warning: <img> lacks "alt" attribute
line 149 column 50 - Warning: trimming empty <font>
line 407 column 932 - Warning: trimming empty <b>
line 478 column 273 - Warning: trimming empty <font>
line 572 column 162 - Warning: trimming empty <font>
line 666 column 273 - Warning: trimming empty <font>
line 753 column 17 - Warning: trimming empty <tr>
line 756 column 50 - Warning: trimming empty <font>
line 125 column 68 - Warning: <nobr> is not approved by W3C
line 141 column 68 - Warning: <nobr> is not approved by W3C
line 177 column 27 - Warning: <nobr> is not approved by W3C
line 211 column 27 - Warning: <nobr> is not approved by W3C
line 241 column 27 - Warning: <nobr> is not approved by W3C
line 267 column 27 - Warning: <nobr> is not approved by W3C
line 293 column 27 - Warning: <nobr> is not approved by W3C
line 295 column 74 - Warning: <table> proprietary attribute "height"
line 295 column 146 - Warning: <td> proprietary attribute "border"
line 295 column 163 - Warning: <table> proprietary attribute "bordercolor"
line 295 column 244 - Warning: <td> proprietary attribute "border"
line 295 column 687 - Warning: <td> proprietary attribute "border"
line 295 column 687 - Warning: <td> proprietary attribute "background"
line 319 column 27 - Warning: <nobr> is not approved by W3C
line 347 column 27 - Warning: <nobr> is not approved by W3C
line 373 column 27 - Warning: <nobr> is not approved by W3C
line 401 column 27 - Warning: <nobr> is not approved by W3C
line 446 column 27 - Warning: <nobr> is not approved by W3C
line 476 column 27 - Warning: <nobr> is not approved by W3C
line 478 column 74 - Warning: <table> proprietary attribute "height"
line 478 column 146 - Warning: <td> proprietary attribute "border"
line 478 column 163 - Warning: <table> proprietary attribute "bordercolor"
line 478 column 244 - Warning: <td> proprietary attribute "border"
line 483 column 1283 - Warning: <td> proprietary attribute "border"
line 483 column 1283 - Warning: <td> proprietary attribute "background"
line 507 column 27 - Warning: <nobr> is not approved by W3C
line 535 column 27 - Warning: <nobr> is not approved by W3C
line 570 column 27 - Warning: <nobr> is not approved by W3C
line 607 column 27 - Warning: <nobr> is not approved by W3C
line 609 column 74 - Warning: <table> proprietary attribute "height"
line 636 column 27 - Warning: <nobr> is not approved by W3C
line 664 column 27 - Warning: <nobr> is not approved by W3C
line 666 column 74 - Warning: <table> proprietary attribute "height"
line 666 column 146 - Warning: <td> proprietary attribute "border"
line 666 column 163 - Warning: <table> proprietary attribute "bordercolor"
line 666 column 244 - Warning: <td> proprietary attribute "border"
line 669 column 1040 - Warning: <td> proprietary attribute "border"
line 669 column 1040 - Warning: <td> proprietary attribute "background"
line 693 column 27 - Warning: <nobr> is not approved by W3C
line 695 column 74 - Warning: <table> proprietary attribute "height"
line 722 column 27 - Warning: <nobr> is not approved by W3C
line 748 column 27 - Warning: <nobr> is not approved by W3C
line 750 column 74 - Warning: <div> proprietary attribute "width"
line 750 column 343 - Warning: <div> proprietary attribute "width"
Info: Document content looks like HTML5
Info: No system identifier in emitted doctype
Tidy found 368 warnings and 0 errors!


URIs must be properly escaped, they must not contain unescaped
characters below U+0021 including the space character and not
above U+007E. Tidy escapes the URI for you as recommended by
HTML 4.01 section B.2.1 and XML 1.0 section 4.2.2. Some user agents
use another algorithm to escape such URIs and some server-sided
scripts depend on that. If you want to depend on that, you must
escape the URI on your own. For more information please refer to
http://www.w3.org/International/O-URL-and-ident.html

The alt attribute should be used to give a short description
of an image; longer descriptions should be given with the
longdesc attribute which takes a URL linked to the description.
These measures are needed for people using non-graphical browsers.

For further advice on how to make your pages accessible
see http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL.
You are recommended to use CSS to specify the font and
properties such as its size and color. This will reduce
the size of HTML files and make them easier to maintain
compared with using <FONT> elements.

You are recommended to use CSS to control line wrapping.
Use "white-space: nowrap" to inhibit wrapping in place
of inserting <NOBR>...</NOBR> into the markup.

About HTML Tidy: https://github.com/htacg/tidy-html5
Bug reports and comments: https://github.com/htacg/tidy-html5/issues
Official mailing list: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-htacg/
Latest HTML specification: http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec-author-view/
Validate your HTML documents: http://validator.w3.org/nu/
Lobby your company to join the W3C: http://www.w3.org/Consortium

Do you speak a language other than English, or a different variant of
English? Consider helping us to localize HTML Tidy. For details please see
https://github.com/htacg/tidy-html5/blob/master/README/LOCALIZE.md