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Taryn

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1987-2014


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Posted on 01-18-11 07:42:50 PM Link | Quote
I still remember the 99% IE days, when IE would treat alt as title, and I actually thought that was how things were supposed to work

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Nicole

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Posted on 01-18-11 07:44:20 PM Link | Quote

Originally posted by Terra
I still remember the 99% IE days, when IE would treat alt as title, and I actually thought that was how things were supposed to work

It doesn't help that people would call it (and still do pretty often) "alt text".

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Taryn

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1987-2014


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Posted on 01-18-11 07:46:10 PM Link | Quote
I got confused when an image didn't load in Mozilla, even. I wondered why it was replaced with the text rather than a broken image icon with the alt text popping up in a tooltip.

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Rena
I had one (1) message in Discord deleted and proceeded to make a huge, huge mess about how it was a violation of free speech and how moderators are supposed to be spam janitors and nobody should have the right to tell me not to talk about school shootings
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Posted on 01-22-11 02:35:45 AM Link | Quote
Post #4031 · 01-21-11 09:35:45 PM
Originally posted by Aoi
Back to the topic at large... how about something (templates) like this?

{{systemCode|text}}

...for example, the old Konami code might end up being represented this way:

{{NESCode|Up, Up, Down, Down, Left, Right, Left, Right, B, A, then press Start.}}

The template would parse the text, replacing Up/Down/Left/Right/B/A/Start with the relevant images, and print out the rest of the text (the commas, period and "then press") as-is. Each of the images would also have alt-text explaining what pad/button-press they are, just to be sure (well, okay, those of us with bad eyesight... ).

There would be variants, of course; PSXCode, SNESCode, etc.
This sounds good. The template would just replace the names with images, so you could just write normally.

I notice, however, a distinct lack of direction icons (just solid shaded triangles would be fine), and that yellow B button just looks like a yellow circle.

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Tauwasser
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Posted on 01-22-11 09:13:06 AM (last edited by Tauwasser at 01-22-11 11:55 AM) Link | Quote
Another option would be to do something similar to what I have done with CGB Bootstrap ROM.

Basically, everything is text, but styled differently, like: Ⓐ + Down. I don't think images are a good option for this.

First of all, usually people will look for button colors, button styles when looking at images. Since these are to be used for a wide range of consoles across different regions (remember the SNES buttons were changed), I think it's fairly certain that the buttons would not fit all systems, so you'd have a mix of articles using text-only versus articles using image-only approaches.

Secondly, I think having plain text or plain text accompanied by an image would be fine. However, only an image might be confusing for all people that use text browsers, are colorblind or just don't get that their yellow C button is meant by some graphic. Also, remember that graphics don't scale with text, so this would rule out all image-only approaches.

Lastly:

Originally posted by Aoi
Back to the topic at large... how about something (templates) like this?

{{systemCode|text}}

...for example, the old Konami code might end up being represented this way:

{{NESCode|Up, Up, Down, Down, Left, Right, Left, Right, B, A, then press Start.}}

The template would parse the text, replacing Up/Down/Left/Right/B/A/Start with the relevant images, and print out the rest of the text (the commas, period and "then press") as-is. Each of the images would also have alt-text explaining what pad/button-press they are, just to be sure (well, okay, those of us with bad eyesight... ).


This would be a very generic name and I would be against something like this. A "code" could really be anything, ASM code, a Gameshark Code, a button combo, you name it. Also, StringUtils is still not installed or maybe it was broken by an update. So pretty much, currently, you cannot code a string replace template. You would have to use a template with select cases and do every button one at a time.

cYa,

Tauwasser

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Nicole

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Posted on 01-22-11 06:29:59 PM Link | Quote

Originally posted by Tauwasser
Another option would be to do something similar to what I have done with CGB Bootstrap ROM.

Basically, everything is text, but styled differently, like: Ⓐ + Down. I don't think images are a good option for this.

First of all, usually people will look for button colors, button styles when looking at images. Since these are to be used for a wide range of consoles across different regions (remember the SNES buttons were changed), I think it's fairly certain that the buttons would not fit all systems, so you'd have a mix of articles using text-only versus articles using image-only approaches.

Secondly, I think having plain text or plain text accompanied by an image would be fine. However, only an image might be confusing for all people that use text browsers, are colorblind or just don't get that their yellow C button is meant by some graphic. Also, remember that graphics don't scale with text, so this would rule out all image-only approaches.

Hm, I'm not sure I agree here... I have to wonder, is an image with alt text really worse than Ⓐ? Are unicode entities of that sort supported in text-based browsers? Can screen readers deal with it properly? (consider, "Up Down Left Right A plus Start" is more understandable than "Upwards Arrow Downwards Arrow Leftwards Arrow Rightwards Arrow Circled Capital Latin A plus Start")

Additionally, both browsers I have installed on this computer zoom images along with text.

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Sanqui
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Posted on 01-22-11 06:33:39 PM Link | Quote
Originally posted by Tauwasser
Also, remember that graphics don't scale with text, so this would rule out all image-only approaches.

Using SVG icons would solve that.

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Posted on 01-22-11 07:29:46 PM Link | Quote
Originally posted by Tauwasser
This would be a very generic name and I would be against something like this. A "code" could really be anything, ASM code, a Gameshark Code, a button combo, you name it.


I was just using "code" as a generic jumping point (er, example). I suppose I probably should've used "cheat," instead.
(Besides, I was wary about using "code," anyway, especially since I use code tags quite a bit on forums... )

I'd figured that if anything resembling the templates were implemented, by that point, we'd have a far better name for them.

Tauwasser
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Posted on 01-22-11 07:33:25 PM Link | Quote
Originally posted by Sanky
Using SVG icons would solve that.

How would you actually show them in wiki synta without specifying a fixed nominal render size? If that's possible, one can think about it.
Originally posted by Imajin
Hm, I'm not sure I agree here... I have to wonder, is an image with alt text really worse than Ⓐ?

In my opinion, yes. IMO it's plain-text information.
Originally posted by Imajin
Are unicode entities of that sort supported in text-based browsers? Can screen readers deal with it properly?

First of all, there is no such thing as a "Unicode entity", so I'm not sure what you mean. In case you meant to say HTML entities: That's a specialty of this board and doesn't affect the wiki.
If a textbrowser properly supports Unicode (API calls, really) and uses the OS's underlying shaping engine (API calls, again) to render text, this will work. I know Windows XP and above and various Linux distros (Ubuntu for sure) can render it properly. I would hope Mac OS does so as well.
Originally posted by Imajin
consider, "Up Down Left Right A plus Start" is more understandable than "Upwards Arrow Downwards Arrow Leftwards Arrow Rightwards Arrow Circled Capital Latin A plus Start"

I have personally never experienced any utility swapping Unicode character names for codepoints it won't show. Worst case, you can get the "no glyph" glyph after A, so there'd be a little box. Still, we live in 2011 goddammit, everything that doesn't support Unicode already, but thinks it has to treat everything as ASCII or ANSI is seriously out-of-date by a long shot.
Originally posted by Imajin
Additionally, both browsers I have installed on this computer zoom images along with text.

Which is funny, because my firefox surely does not resize images in text that are given a absolute pixel size, because... you know, it's a absolute pixel size. Just a few months ago, I corrected some Wikipedia pages, because some users had thought it was appropriate to do the same there.
Usually, pictures that get resized with text are inside an element that is defined by relative font sizes (such as "width: 3em;") and then the image is set to fill that element. This is clearly not the case for images that get inserted via regular wiki syntax.

cYa,

Tauwasser

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Posted on 01-22-11 07:44:38 PM Link | Quote

Originally posted by Tauwasser
Originally posted by Imajin
Additionally, both browsers I have installed on this computer zoom images along with text.

Which is funny, because my firefox surely does not resize images in text that are given a absolute pixel size, because... you know, it's a absolute pixel size. Just a few months ago, I corrected some Wikipedia pages, because some users had thought it was appropriate to do the same there.
Usually, pictures that get resized with text are inside an element that is defined by relative font sizes (such as "width: 3em;") and then the image is set to fill that element. This is clearly not the case for images that get inserted via regular wiki syntax.

Hm, my Firefox surely does, because... it's zoomed. In fact, if I go to TCRF right now, inline images zoom with the text size. (This is an option, though, so it perhaps may be disabled in your browser, and since there seems to be a focus on edge cases I will concede there)

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Rusted Logic
Acmlmboard - commit 47be4dc [2021-08-23]
©2000-2022 Acmlm, Xkeeper, Kaito Sinclaire, et al.

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line 296 column 27 - Warning: <nobr> is not approved by W3C
line 346 column 27 - Warning: <nobr> is not approved by W3C
line 348 column 74 - Warning: <table> proprietary attribute "height"
line 348 column 146 - Warning: <td> proprietary attribute "border"
line 348 column 163 - Warning: <table> proprietary attribute "bordercolor"
line 348 column 244 - Warning: <td> proprietary attribute "border"
line 357 column 2059 - Warning: <td> proprietary attribute "border"
line 357 column 2059 - Warning: <td> proprietary attribute "background"
line 381 column 27 - Warning: <nobr> is not approved by W3C
line 408 column 27 - Warning: <nobr> is not approved by W3C
line 441 column 27 - Warning: <nobr> is not approved by W3C
line 482 column 27 - Warning: <nobr> is not approved by W3C
line 484 column 74 - Warning: <table> proprietary attribute "height"
line 484 column 146 - Warning: <td> proprietary attribute "border"
line 484 column 163 - Warning: <table> proprietary attribute "bordercolor"
line 484 column 244 - Warning: <td> proprietary attribute "border"
line 487 column 1484 - Warning: <td> proprietary attribute "border"
line 487 column 1484 - Warning: <td> proprietary attribute "background"
Info: Document content looks like HTML5
Info: No system identifier in emitted doctype
Tidy found 268 warnings and 0 errors!


The alt attribute should be used to give a short description
of an image; longer descriptions should be given with the
longdesc attribute which takes a URL linked to the description.
These measures are needed for people using non-graphical browsers.

For further advice on how to make your pages accessible
see http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL.
You are recommended to use CSS to specify the font and
properties such as its size and color. This will reduce
the size of HTML files and make them easier to maintain
compared with using <FONT> elements.

You are recommended to use CSS to control line wrapping.
Use "white-space: nowrap" to inhibit wrapping in place
of inserting <NOBR>...</NOBR> into the markup.

About HTML Tidy: https://github.com/htacg/tidy-html5
Bug reports and comments: https://github.com/htacg/tidy-html5/issues
Official mailing list: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-htacg/
Latest HTML specification: http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec-author-view/
Validate your HTML documents: http://validator.w3.org/nu/
Lobby your company to join the W3C: http://www.w3.org/Consortium

Do you speak a language other than English, or a different variant of
English? Consider helping us to localize HTML Tidy. For details please see
https://github.com/htacg/tidy-html5/blob/master/README/LOCALIZE.md