Jul -- Display Case: Super Smash Bros Brawl

Shadic
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Posted on 12-06-08 04:26:18 AM

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Metaknight and Snake are god tier in Brawl, actually.

Also, that's not Final Destination.

Items make things too much of a clusterfuck for a lot of people, actually. I haven't played with items on in a Smash Bros Game since I was like, twelve. Some people just prefer it that way.

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Posted on 12-06-08 04:29:54 AM

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Originally posted by Shadic
Metaknight and Snake are god tier in Brawl, actually.

Also, that's not Final Destination.

It's completely flat and featureless except for an equally flat platform that only occasionally shows up, with no random stage effects. It's Final Destination.

Items make things too much of a clusterfuck for a lot of people, actually. I haven't played with items on in a Smash Bros Game since I was like, twelve. Some people just prefer it that way.

Items are kind of the whole point of Smash Bros. Seriously, why not just go play Street Fighter or KoF or Soul Calibur or some shit already?

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Shadic
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Posted on 12-06-08 04:43:42 AM

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Originally posted by Minaya
It's completely flat and featureless except for an equally flat platform that only occasionally shows up, with no random stage effects. It's Final Destination.

The key part there is "No random stage effects." The platform is always there, but always moving.

Items are kind of the whole point of Smash Bros. Seriously, why not just go play Street Fighter or KoF or Soul Calibur or some shit already?

Because we enjoy Smash Bros? It's not perfect - No game is. But we enjoy the premise so much that we can tweak it to make it better, in our opinion.

Was Melee the same game as Soul Calibur? I think not.

Just because people who play Smash Bros. more competitively dislike random factors creating the victor, doesn't mean the game as a whole is bad. The games have always let you customize how you play, modding it is just one step further.

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Posted on 12-06-08 06:15:22 AM

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Originally posted by Shadic
Just because people who play Smash Bros. more competitively dislike random factors creating the victor, doesn't mean the game as a whole is bad.

No, it's not bad. That point though is that by removing all the random aspects of the matches like items and stage effects, you're basically making Smash Bros into generic fighting game #whatever but with Nintendo characters.

Sure, to each their own, but to me it just seems like if you really want a competitive serious fighter, Smash Bros is the last fighter that I would choose.

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Shadic
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Posted on 12-06-08 06:20:28 AM

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But simply removing the completely random upsets that are in Smash Bros. from the game doesn't make it like any other fighter. It's still Smash Bros. But when you want a serious match, you don't want to have random factors influence things.

Brawl without tripping, items, and with L-Canceling and greater hitstun is just more similar to how Melee was played.

Was Melee "Street Fighter or KoF or Soul Caliubur or some shit"? I'm going to have to say no.

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Posted on 12-06-08 06:21:05 AM

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Smash Bros isn't a fighter.

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Posted on 12-06-08 06:25:30 AM (last edited by Viarra at 12-06-08 03:25 AM)

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Again, I'm saying that removing the random aspects of the game brings it closer to the rest of the generic fighters. Yes I know Smash Bros is unique but if that's the case why try and turn it into something it's not intended by the developers to be?

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Shadic
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Posted on 12-06-08 06:27:07 AM (last edited by Shadic at 12-06-08 03:29 AM)

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XxShadicxX: People don't understand that items aren't what make Smash Bros. Smash Bros.
XxShadicxX: It's the characters, the stategies, the moves, the physics, the gameplay.
XxShadicxX: You make combos by doing multiple moves and predicting where your enemy is going to end up, NOT by slamming inane button combinations into your controller.

Originally posted by cpubasic13
Smash Bros isn't a fighter.

And I would disagree. Smash Bros. is a fighting game. You fight. You hit people, do damage, and then you get knockouts, or they do the same to do. It's how Smash Bros. handles the concept so uniquely that makes it the game that it is.

And that's the appealing aspect of the game.

Originally posted by Viarra
Again, I'm saying that removing the random aspects of the game brings it closer to the rest of the generic fighters. Yes I know Smash Bros is unique but if that's the case why try and turn it into something it's not intended by the developers to be?

Smash Bros. is so far from being a generic fighter that doing something such as removing completely random aspects of gameplay really poses no risk for making it the same as any of those other titles.

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Posted on 12-06-08 06:28:58 AM

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How can you say the items don't make Smash Bros, Smash Bros? What other fighting game has the plethora of unique wacky and fun items that Smash Bros has? The items most definitely are a part of what makes Smash Bros unique.

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Shadic
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Posted on 12-06-08 06:30:44 AM (last edited by Shadic at 12-06-08 03:32 AM)

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Originally posted by Viarra
How can you say the items don't make Smash Bros, Smash Bros? What other fighting game has the plethora of unique wacky and fun items that Smash Bros has? The items most definitely are a part of what makes Smash Bros unique.

A part of the game that the developers realized that people may not always want to play with. Item Select has been an option since the first title.

Some people want to just be able to fight without wondering if a star is going to drop over their opponent head, or if an explosive barrel with pop in-front of your Captain Falcon while he's charging up a Falcon Punch.

Why are items an issue anyways? It's clearly the choice of who is playing. I have more fun without items, almost everybody that I play with agrees. Things may be different with you, and as said prior, that's why there's an option.

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Posted on 12-06-08 06:53:32 AM

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Originally posted by Shadic
XxShadicxX: People don't understand that items aren't what make Smash Bros. Smash Bros.
XxShadicxX: It's the characters, the stategies, the moves, the physics, the gameplay.
XxShadicxX: You make combos by doing multiple moves and predicting where your enemy is going to end up, NOT by slamming inane button combinations into your controller.

Yeah, that's exactly why there's so much bickering over L-cancelling. Because, you know, inane button pushing doesn't have any effect on the game. Right, gotcha.

Originally posted by cpubasic13
Smash Bros isn't a fighter.

And I would disagree. Smash Bros. is a fighting game. You fight. You hit people, do damage, and then you get knockouts, or they do the same to do. It's how Smash Bros. handles the concept so uniquely that makes it the game that it is.

And that's the appealing aspect of the game.

Except by removing what makes Smash Bros. unique kind of removes that uniqueness.

Smash Bros. is so far from being a generic fighter that doing something such as removing completely random aspects of gameplay really poses no risk for making it the same as any of those other titles.

Yeah, no other fighter has completely boring flat stages with itemless gameplay. Oh wait.

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Sails
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Posted on 12-06-08 07:06:19 AM

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Originally posted by Minaya
Originally posted by Shadic
XxShadicxX: People don't understand that items aren't what make Smash Bros. Smash Bros.
XxShadicxX: It's the characters, the stategies, the moves, the physics, the gameplay.
XxShadicxX: You make combos by doing multiple moves and predicting where your enemy is going to end up, NOT by slamming inane button combinations into your controller.

Yeah, that's exactly why there's so much bickering over L-cancelling. Because, you know, inane button pushing doesn't have any effect on the game. Right, gotcha.

Originally posted by cpubasic13
Smash Bros isn't a fighter.

And I would disagree. Smash Bros. is a fighting game. You fight. You hit people, do damage, and then you get knockouts, or they do the same to do. It's how Smash Bros. handles the concept so uniquely that makes it the game that it is.

And that's the appealing aspect of the game.

Except by removing what makes Smash Bros. unique kind of removes that uniqueness.

Smash Bros. is so far from being a generic fighter that doing something such as removing completely random aspects of gameplay really poses no risk for making it the same as any of those other titles.

Yeah, no other fighter has completely boring flat stages with itemless gameplay. Oh wait.

And this is where you are wrong. I prefer Smash Bros. over every other fighter game because what makes it unique is the percentage rising and knock out style. It's not "Kick-the-shit-out-of-with-infinite-combo-until-HP-Bar-is-depleted", Smash Bros. gameplay without items is still in a completely different league of it's own. Also Lag-canceling requires quite a bit of skill, the bickering comes from the fact that people believe it shouldn't have been taken out of Brawl because it was purposely programmed in to 64/Melee.

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Shadic
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Posted on 12-06-08 07:30:10 AM (last edited by Shadic at 12-06-08 04:52 AM)

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Originally posted by Minaya
Yeah, that's exactly why there's so much bickering over L-cancelling. Because, you know, inane button pushing doesn't have any effect on the game. Right, gotcha.

I've already explained this. And quoted my explanation before. Please actually read what I say.

Originally posted by Shadic
That's why people are also considering Auto L-Canceling. Basically, it cuts the lag down from attacks when you hit the ground.

Originally posted by Minaya
Except by removing what makes Smash Bros. unique kind of removes that uniqueness.

Items don't make Smash Bros. unique. Look at what I've been saying about the actual gameplay, or Sail's post before mine.

Yeah, no other fighter has completely boring flat stages with itemless gameplay. Oh wait.

Again, look at my post explained the shit that actually matters in Smash Bros (It's not items.) Or you know, Sail's post. I shouldn't have to repeat things so often here.

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Posted on 12-06-08 07:34:51 AM (last edited by Sonicandtails at 12-06-08 04:52 AM)

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Originally posted by Sonicandtails
Why are we doing this Shadic?

Once is enough, seriously. Just because someone may not understand or doesn't see it your way doesn't make it right to make them seem retarded. He can read, don't be an asshat.

Editors Note: This was in response to blatant dickery that was in Shadic's post that he removed after I posted.

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Shadic
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Posted on 12-06-08 07:42:58 AM (last edited by Shadic at 12-06-08 04:54 AM)

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Originally posted by Sonicandtails
Editors Note: This was in response to blatant dickery that was in Shadic's post that he removed after I posted.

It wasn't that bad.

Am I supposed to explain what Auto L-Canceling is, then? If so, I'll take a stab.

Firstly, regular L-Canceling was a technique present in Smash 64 and Melee. If the player pressed a button before/as they landed (depended on the game), the lag from regular aerial attacks (As in, used via A button or C-Stick, not B, or special attacks) would be either halved, or cut out all together. (Again, this depends on the game. In Melee, the recovery frames were cut by half, and in Smash 64, they were gone all together.)

Anyways, people wanted said technique in Brawl, because it was mysteriously absent. So, they made a code that did so.

However, they also made a code that automatically cuts the lag down when you land, regardless of if you pressed a button or not. Really, all this does is cut recovery down, and make aerial attacks as an approach more viable. It especially helps heavier characters, as they have more lag that's being cut.

I'm fairly neutral as to which code is better, the one that requires a button push or not. I honestly slam down that L trigger every time I do an attack in Brawl that would benefit from so, despite not actually playing with these codes yet myself.

As I said prior, this would just help characters play offensively, as it's pretty easy to just remain on the defensive in the game as it is now.

And increasing hitstun would help those who get an attack in stay on the offensive, but I'll discuss that later when it too will surely be attacked.

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Posted on 12-06-08 07:54:22 AM

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Okay here, let me make it obvious:

I FIND THAT GUTTING THE ENTIRETY OF SMASH BROS. GAMES ASIDE FROM THE CHARACTERS IS AN ABSURD CONCEPT AND REMOVES THE GAME OF 90% OF ITS FUN FACTOR.

There, I said it. None of this bullshit about "more competitive" is going to cut it, since (surprise) even with items on I can still find ways to enjoy the game and observe that the superior players tend to win even with them on.

But okay, all randomness is bad and should be removed blargh blargh blargh blargh blargh blargh whining.

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Shadic
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Posted on 12-06-08 07:58:40 AM

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How is it gutting? I'm actually pretty sure that most casual players wouldn't even notice the changes if they were made. Hell, Auto L-Canceling makes the game easier.

And being easy to play is what Smash Bros. is about, isn't it?

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Posted on 12-06-08 08:12:58 AM (last edited by Sonicandtails at 12-06-08 05:13 AM)

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Originally posted by Minaya
Okay here, let me make it obvious:

I FIND THAT GUTTING THE ENTIRETY OF SMASH BROS. GAMES ASIDE FROM THE CHARACTERS IS AN ABSURD CONCEPT AND REMOVES THE GAME OF 90% OF ITS FUN FACTOR.

There, I said it. None of this bullshit about "more competitive" is going to cut it, since (surprise) even with items on I can still find ways to enjoy the game and observe that the superior players tend to win even with them on.

But okay, all randomness is bad and should be removed blargh blargh blargh blargh blargh blargh whining.

...No one is telling you that playing without items is more competitive. It's an opinion. If it was fact, there wouldn't be Item Standard Play, which keeps most of the items and clears out most of the obviously overpowered ones.

Also, it can be kind of related to something like Counter-Strike. The games cyber leagues revolved around 5 players versus 5 players with shields and auto snipers being not allowed due to blatant cheapness (not to mention the shield is exclusive to Counter Terrorists). The game can really go up to 32 altogether, but having so many players and trying to command all of them on small maps and whatnot is kind of ridiculous. Every game grows these kinds of standards, it's part of the metagame, and while nobody should claim it's the only way to play it, there are tons of elitist assholes anyways who will claim it anyways. In this case, I don't think anyone has outright stated that.

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Posted on 12-06-08 08:46:03 AM

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Completely off the discussion about theorycrafting...

Could I get yier friend codes? I'd love to play with you guys, my friend list is still pretty empty.

And comboing in Brawl isn't that hard. If you know the moves of the character and how long it takes till they impact... meh.

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