Originally posted by Xenesis

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Secondly, L cancelling does not actually improve the game anymore than halving lag across the board - there's no tactical improvements, just a technical one.

You always want to L-cancel because it's always an advantage. It does nothing to actually deepen the game and anyone with skill *will* hit that L-cancel every time because they've spent the pointless dozens of hours training their muscle memory to hit it perfectly. At high levels of play there is no tactical difference between L-cancelling and halving all the landing lag from all aerials.

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I suppose you've got a point there. But it was one more technical move to give players. Removing it seems silly.

Originally posted by Xenesis

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As for hitstun, Brawl already has issues with infinite/0-death combos. Increasing hitstun would only make this exponentially worse. Or more like SSB64, I guess. You'd have to massively mutilate every character's moveset to make noticeably increased hitstun remotely playable.

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This is where we disagree, it seems. Most of the zero-death combos are grab related, yes? That's just poor play testing and balancing than anything else. For example, making DK's recovery after being grabbed take so long is stupid. If they cut that, but extended hit stun otherwise (Like the so called Brawl+ codes have done,) I think it would/will make the game more interesting.


Also, randomly. Captain Falcon blows in Brawl. Seriously.

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Originally posted by Skreeny

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Ness is bad in Melee. Therefore, Melee is a badly designed game.

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Did you pay attention to the part where I said "Also, randomly" ? It was a thought that ran across my mind as I was typing. And it's pretty much a fact now that he's worse in Brawl than he was in Melee. He was one of my favorite characters to play as in Melee, but now in Brawl, I've switched over to characters that don't such so hard anymore. For example. Kirby and Pikachu are once again decent, which is nice.

Just to give you another quote to take out of context: They made Link even worse in this game.

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Originally posted by Xenesis

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It's not and really isn't designed for it. But damnit, if people want to make it something it's not they should at least make it it something it's not properly!

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And how would you do that?

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By that argument you could also say that by making the ability to jump now require a 3-button keypress combo you're giving the game one more techincal move.

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Giving the player the ability to play truly offensive without being easily punished makes the game more technical. I'm saying one specific move made the game more technical, and you're rebutting with "Well, you could make it more complicated and it would be more technical!" Yes, but with some moderation. There's a huge difference between pressing a button at a certain time to make things happen faster, as compared to making the player hit several buttons in order to jump.

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Many of the 0-D are indeed grab related. But if you look at SSB64 compared to SSBM, you'll notice the massive hitstun cut - SSB64 has massive amounts of 0-D combos and it basically is who can 0-D first. Melee is a lot better in that regard.

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No, Melee is better because it gives a suitable amount of options to avoid combos. Hitstun is indeed a lot lower, but they reduced it so far in Brawl, combos are very rare. And don't discount teching and airdodging. Also, L Canceling was in Smash 64, but it was instant. That was the problem.

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But the fact of the matter is, they have a low stun time, even after grabs and you've got 0-D problems. What about other things like Falco's laser lock and the like - they'll only get worse if you increase hitstun.

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So increase hitstun in general, while fixing things such as Falco's laser lock?

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My two mains got nerfed out of existence from Melee to Brawl. You don't see me complaining about that.

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And those two characters are? (It's not clear if you mean literally "They're gone," or what.)

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Originally posted by Minaya

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I just don't get how people can get so engrossed in that game that it turns into a huge orgy of bugs, glitches, and random "techniques" that MUST BE USED to even have a chance. Bleugh.

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I think it makes it more fun than the stereotype that it's a button smasher with kiddy characters.

I'm just an above-average player that would like the game to have some of the depth that Melee had, and I didn't even bother with wavedashing in that. It's the simplification of things (Like tether recoveries) that irritate me.

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