Jul -- News: So it's Christmas time coming up...

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Posted on 11-12-08 10:18:12 PM

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Even though I'm both an atheist and agnostic, I don't feel "isolated" during the holidays. It just so happens to be the other way around, as I usually get together with my friends and family. I may not be religious, but the holidays are a perfect time to get together, so I might as well use that opportunity.

Any way, I don't really think that this should be a problem for those who do celebrate holidays for religious reasons. (And those who don't) The First Amendment says that this isn't a problem, either. Expressing one's opinion shouldn't "fuck with a holiday," as long those with a different opinion don't start causing problems.

Oh, and not to be picky, but only describing yourself as agnostic doesn't really tell me anything about your religious beliefs. Would you care to elaborate?

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Posted on 11-12-08 10:28:25 PM

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Agnosticism (Greek: α- a-, without + γνώσις gnōsis, knowledge; after Gnosticism) is the philosophical view that the truth value of certain claims — particularly metaphysical claims regarding theology, afterlife or the existence of deities, ghosts, bogeymen or even ultimate reality — is unknown or, depending on the form of agnosticism, inherently impossible to prove or disprove. It is often put forth as a middle ground between theism and atheism[1].

Actually, that should say enough...

I don't really believe any of them are right or that Atheism, the belief in no one at all but ourselves - simply stated, is the correct way either. It's pretty much saying 'I don't know what's right but I'm not chastising you for your belief if you feel yourself necessary to believe that way either'. To add to that, I pretty much encourage it as long as you aren't trying to drum up trouble for your beliefs...which an anti-God campaign in a hallowed time is most certainly trying to do so.

That's like the whole Santa Claus bit of getting banned in Australia last year over the word 'ho' thereby being a derogatory comment of women, supposedly...this and other things happen every year anymore and I just wish they would not mess with it and leave it alone. That's all I'm really getting at.

And the people -with- differing opinions on the matter are projected at 92% of the US population, according to that article, that believe in a God and probably the way it goes about in terms of Christmas and their views on the matter. I posed this question to quite a few people I talked to at work and around a few places of differing thoughts and views before I posted it here. They pretty much have that opinion of 'that's stupid' or 'not surprised anymore with the way things are going' or 'didn't we do this last year and the year before that?'...

Not letting it ruin my holiday at all...I just think it's retarded but blatant timing.

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Posted on 11-12-08 11:03:13 PM

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That definition is basically a wordy way of saying "Those who are agnostic think that it is impossible to know if supernatural things are real."
That says nothing about what one believes, though. (As an example, it is possible to believe in unicorns even if they think that it is impossible to know if they actually do exist, as it is possible to believe they don't exist without thinking it's possible to know if they exist for sure) Gnosticism and Theism are two different things, so agnosticism is not any kind of "middle ground."

Any way, what you described yourself as is an agnostic atheist, like myself. You're an atheist because your answer to "Do you believe that a god exists?" is anything but "yes," and you're agnostic because your answer to "Do you think we can know if a god exists?" isn't "yes" either.
And, just for the record, atheism is usually not defined as the belief in no gods, but the rejection of every claim for a god. (The difference is that one definition uses "belief" and one doesn't. Most refer to the different definitions as "strong atheism" and "weak atheism")

Skreeny
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Posted on 11-12-08 11:08:41 PM

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...You're missing the underlying problem. This is a response to things like:

In Washington, the humanists' campaign comes as conservative Christian groups gear up their efforts to keep Christ in Christmas. In the past five years, groups such as the American Family Association and the Catholic League have criticized or threatened boycotts of retailers who use generic "holiday" greetings.

I'm sorry, but running a "there may be no God so celebrate the season however you like" campaign feels a lot better to me than one effectively saying "There is a God (our God) so you'd better celebrate our holiday you damned sinners".

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Posted on 11-13-08 12:05:24 AM

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Originally posted by The Red Snifit
That definition is basically a wordy way of saying "Those who are agnostic think that it is impossible to know if supernatural things are real."
That says nothing about what one believes, though. (As an example, it is possible to believe in unicorns even if they think that it is impossible to know if they actually do exist, as it is possible to believe they don't exist without thinking it's possible to know if they exist for sure) Gnosticism and Theism are two different things, so agnosticism is not any kind of "middle ground."

Any way, what you described yourself as is an agnostic atheist, like myself. You're an atheist because your answer to "Do you believe that a god exists?" is anything but "yes," and you're agnostic because your answer to "Do you think we can know if a god exists?" isn't "yes" either.
And, just for the record, atheism is usually not defined as the belief in no gods, but the rejection of every claim for a god. (The difference is that one definition uses "belief" and one doesn't. Most refer to the different definitions as "strong atheism" and "weak atheism")

Actually, it was a Wikipedia [citation needed] def. I guess you'll have to take it up with the people that moderate it for how right a definition it is...but it is what I believe but apparently I should clarify...

You're putting words in my mouth, for starters. Never said I was an atheist. That would condone the belief of no God whatsoever.

To your end of placing me in that, I contradict by also saying 'How can you believe no God exists and that what you believe about there being none is true?'. You can't tell me that there isn't one and back it 100%. This end is of the same degree to someone getting asked its polar opposite, in my opinion. Therefore, there isn't a right answer to the same degree that there isn't a wrong one. Only moral value to be considered as such. The only problem with that is there are many systems of right and wrong in accordance to that as there are people.

Simply put, I don't completely reject the idea that a God exists or some other religion may be true. I can't know. No human can truly. No amount of science or human comprehension, no matter how great the human ego may tell him or her otherwise, can alleviate this fact. It is not in our right to totally comprehend and never has been...that's why there has always been the element of faith and difference in ideals and why no right answer has ever been found out of all the religions ever placed forth.

And therefore, yes, it is a middle ground to say 'I don't know and can't know any way'.

But to say that for myself only means that I personally don't wish to join the search, at this time, for whatever the right path really is. Therefore I can't tell someone they're wrong in their belief when I choose not to look for it, only understand what they feel at the time and hopefully aid them in it...but when it comes to shoving an ideal in at the wrong time...I think that's morally wrong and asking for trouble and apparently so do a lot of other people.

Skreeny, I can just as easily reword that:

"The Christians are trying to keep what sacred things they have left of a country that is trying their damndest to rid them of their idiotic beliefs.

or

"Damn Christians are getting in our way of expressing ourselves like they always have. Let's launch a campaign that's sure to make them get pissy so they look bad when they retort."

I could go on...but I honestly don't know why I should when I've been downplayed against anyways...I'm trying to make people understand that I get being merry without a belief in God...but it isn't necessary to be done in such a protestful and campaignish manner to right the 'wrong' of the belief at this time of the year. That's the point I'm trying to make that's getting shot down here.

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Posted on 11-13-08 01:48:36 AM

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If only both sides could agree that peace is a common theme in Christmas.

I don't believe it's right for them (the religous) to argue about a poster. I also think that saying "you're an athiest, and you don't get into the holidays" is completely ignorant and false. I personally, and certainly, have a great time. In any case, I'd like to see a sign advertising a 'free for all' message not favoring one side over the other. One that incourages happiness in the one life we can all agree on that will end.

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Posted on 11-13-08 02:47:59 AM

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Originally posted by Fate Testarossa
Never said I was an atheist. That would condone the belief of no God whatsoever.

No, it doesn't, and I already explained why. To say it again, atheism is defined as the rejection (Or disbelief) of any claim for a god. The claim that there is no God goes with those now labeled "strong atheists" and "antitheists."

'How can you believe no God exists and that what you believe about there being none is true?'. You can't tell me that there isn't one and back it 100%.

I know. That's why I don't support that claim.

Simply put, I don't completely reject the idea that a God exists or some other religion may be true.

If your answer is not "yes" to "Does (God X) exist?" you reject the idea. Even "I don't know." is a rejection. (Note: Rejecting the idea in this case is just another way of saying "I don't believe it."

And therefore, yes, it is a middle ground to say 'I don't know and can't know any way'.

No, it isn't. As I said, knowing is a lot different that believing.
Basically, theism, atheism, and strong atheism are the three stances. (Think: moral, amoral, and immoral. One is pro, one is neutral, and one anti.) You can be agnostic in all three of those stances, so it is not some logical middle ground. Saying "I'm agnostic" when asked what you believe is only avoiding the question.
I'm sure you don't like being called an "agnostic atheist," but that's what your claims match up with. Don't fret, though, as you're still in the middle ground and you're still agnostic. All it means is that you've been calling yourself (and others) the wrong thing.

...And if I failed to convince you that agnostics aren't even in the same category as atheists, then I'll just stop trying.

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Posted on 11-13-08 02:52:20 AM

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Originally posted by The Red Snifit
Simply put, I don't completely reject the idea that a God exists or some other religion may be true.

If your answer is not "yes" to "Does (God X) exist?" you reject the idea. Even "I don't know." is a rejection. (Note: Rejecting the idea in this case is just another way of saying "I don't believe it."

Uh, no. Rejecting would be me saying "His post has no intelligence." Saying "I don't know if it has intelligence" is not a rejection. It's a statement that it very well might be true, but at the moment you can't say.

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Posted on 11-13-08 03:07:57 AM

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Originally posted by Xkeeper
Uh, no. Rejecting would be me saying "His post has no intelligence." Saying "I don't know if it has intelligence" is not a rejection. It's a statement that it very well might be true, but at the moment you can't say.

There are two claims. One claim is "X is true." The other is "X is not true." If I don't believe the first claim, I don't have to believe the second claim. This is a very important aspect of logic. Not following it is a terrible way of thinking, and it would cause so many problems, it wouldn't be funny.

Saying "I don't know" means that the claim might be true, but for the moment it is rejected. (Usually because there is not enough evidence to support it the claim)
For example, a hypothesis might be true, but does that mean it should be accepted as a scientific theory? No, so it has to be rejected until the hypothesis has enough evidence to back it up.

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Posted on 11-13-08 03:12:30 AM (last edited by Fate Testarossa at 11-13-08 12:20 AM)

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If you continue to live that black and white...you're really going to have trouble in your life one of these days.

Yes, there is a middle road of understanding here.

In your own words you said 'reject a certain area'. Well, to say that I meant I reject both. Neither are 100% true.

Can we move on now?

EDIT: By the by, there's agnostic theism as well. The only problem is I don't know which to go after in your opinion...and therefore I can't tell you either way of which I lean. In fact, I don't period.

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Posted on 11-13-08 03:34:08 AM

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Originally posted by Fate Testarossa
By the by, there's agnostic theism as well. The only problem is I don't know which to go after in your opinion...and therefore I can't tell you either way of which I lean. In fact, I don't period.

Originally posted by The Red Snifit
Basically, theism, atheism, and strong atheism are the three stances. You can be agnostic in all three of those stances...

I have a feeling you aren't actually reading my posts...

Any way, you're only a theist when you answer "yes" to the God Question. If your answer to the Anti-God Question (Do you believe God does not exist?) is yes, you are an antitheist. Anything else is atheism.
Kay? Thanks. Bye.

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Posted on 11-13-08 07:03:16 PM

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Let me get this straight. Boycotting stores for not using your preferred holiday greeting (as they've been doing for five years now) is okay...

...but running a billboard (for lack of a better term) suggesting that you rationally examine your beliefs (as is being done this year and this year only) is not?

Where do you get the right to say that the religion is beyond reproach for a full 1/12th of the year because they adopted a time of celebration that occurs then? Guess what! People aren't all peaceful and happy this time of year purely because they celebrate Jesus' birth. If anything, most of them celebrate the bearded guy in a red costume, and that's even ignoring the Jews (Hanukkah), Pagans (Yuletide), Muslims (their new year starts near the end of December), and any number of purely secular events (Kwanzaa?) that also occur in the period.

To suggest that Christmas is the only cause for people being good in this time is, at best, extremely biased. To suggest that it's alright to try to force stores to celebrate it as such (as in the boycotts of stores that don't) is extremely dangerous.

...And for that matter, if you don't have any answer for "Why believe in God?", do you really qualify as a believer? Even the most naive member of any church(/mosque/synagogue) should have some reason for believing what they do.

Of course, it seems that this whole topic has turned into an argument on semantics anyway, so... yeah.

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