Jul -- General Chat: Presidential Poll

Lyskar
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Posted on 09-09-08 03:54:55 PM

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	Metal_Man88
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In a way, I figure the US is screwed because people aren't politically active much anymore.

So the Republicans can win election after election by playing the same card game. It doesn't matter if they're wrong. They'll claim to make everything better again, then fail to do some time and time again.

And Americans will just forget what happened with the previous administrations each cycle, so they are tricked anew into believing it works, because they are appealed to based upon core American values of 'massive force against enemies' 'keep the status quo' and such.

But the status quo includes being unable to understand the enemy by not using any Anthropology to figure them out, and then wasting men's lives trying to fix by force what ought to be fixed by pure intelligence work. To win peace in a nation of insurgents, one would have to win the hearts of the people.

McCain's tough guy policy hides a fear all Americans should have: that acting as if we're #1 doesn't actually make us that, and that we're losing traction on the world stage. We're looking to the rest of the world sort of how it views Russia's incursion into Georgia--well, a heartbeat or two away from that, but my point is we're trying to change the world by brute force, which doesn't work against alien cultures which refuse to submit to our beliefs.

I'm not saying Obama is the solution. In fact, ideally, Obama being elected would force the Republicans to bring to the next election a better candidate. By all means I liked the old Republican candidates like Theodore Roosevelt. Both parties can be good and bad. And they often trade sides in history.

But most specifically what I personally believe harms the nation more than anything is the philosophy of the neo-conservative, which involves invading civil rights, other countries, and the nation's treasury while cutting taxes and allowing business to screw over the American customer. You've seen what that's done to our economy first-hand. I want the people who support McCain to explain to me how he'll fix this while upholding that same mantra George Bush has over the economy. Or maybe he has a different mantra?

I'd also, of course, love to know what Obama's big 'change' plan is about, as keeping everyone in the dark is the whole reason McCain is getting steam at this moment. McCain has a lot of things out on the table for people to see, so I agree he might look like the safest choice for that;

But consider that each side practices a subtle deception to get elected. Ultimately one is electing the party, not the person. George Bush himself, lame duck as it gets, remains a powerful force of Neo-conservatism continuing the downhill trend in our country. Why do I mention him?

My Grandfather was the Republican in the family. The most outspoken, pro-Republican guy you could get. He died recently, but he saw the last elections, and watched the previous primaries. He even voted for Bush; although, later on, even he began to have second feelings about him.

A letter came addressed to him; he was dead, but the Republican party didn't know; hence they appealed to him for aid. In the letter was...

...a picture of McCain right next to George Bush.

This is the image which the party has of him. This is the same image Sarah Palin is a part of. You cannot pretend the people in recent Republican history aren't going to play a part in any government McCain has. Indeed, they even had a Bush speech at the convention--one which had been almost cancelled, and which McCain tried to hide--but it becomes obvious that his link to Bush exists, and to the overall philosophy. His Maverick status is there, too--but only to show off to voters. Naturally he is a man of both policies, and I wouldn't expect a copy of Bush; but I am speaking on for a simple reason.

It isn't even about the candidates themselves, but their parties. Changing out the guard once in a while is a part of the American way; indeed. Clinton was mighty stale after eight years, and we did need a change. Especially since, in retrospect, Al Gore was not much of a candidate.

So now consider that after eight years of Clinton, the Republicans got their eight years in, leaving a tired and messy outlook for the government. Also note, of course, the uselessness of the Democratic Senate and House as of current; perhaps...

one could restore to reality a sense of party balance. Obama, like Clinton, seems to move towards the center as time goes on, and our current legislature is likely to be voted out in favor of either Republicans, or different Democrats.

Voting for Obama might allow the GOP time to acquire somebody whom isn't linked to the nation-degrading neo-conservative agenda and apply its energy into throwing out the currently useless legislature. I dunno. I've found there's no point in arguing with people over it, but that's my opinion.

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Hiryuu

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Posted on 09-09-08 04:15:01 PM

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Originally posted by Metal_Man88
...I'm not saying Obama is the solution. In fact, ideally, Obama being elected would force the Republicans to bring to the next election a better candidate. By all means I liked the old Republican candidates like Theodore Roosevelt...

So you would mean to tell me, even though you say Obama isn't the solution, that you'd put him in there and make it worse for everyone when it's possible the other side is better for a span of four to eight years? That doesn't sound like a very good plan. :\

And McCain having said Maverick status and being a POW and being physically affected by that should be a sign that he is NOT a warmonger, he despises it I'm sure, but he wants to find a way for the greater good of the country, much to the discomfort of those that don't WANT to be affected by it because they are not personally involved (and why should they think it'd matter, basically), to win what it is we're in, not have another Vietnam or something similar. It's the whole country first principle...not the 'me first' principle. That's probably the core difference between both parties right now.

And to add on Bush bash, just today Bush is pulling out 8000 troops within the coming months and is in the means of continuing to do so. We're almost done with this but people need to be patient. If you're not affected by this personally, it's likely you don't understand it in its entirety but doing nothing is no excuse when you can do something and possibly get this taken care of...and as for the '100 years of war' that I know people are going to push again with McCain, it was more or less a statement of 'until it's done'. When there is evidence of being finished up, why shy away like a scared turtle? Finish it.

I think no one likes war here...I don't see how it can be an argument anymore.

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Posted on 09-09-08 05:09:55 PM

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...and the respect returns, ashamed.

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Posted on 09-09-08 08:25:15 PM

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Maybe I am just naive or too dense or too stupid to realize what is going on, but I sense Obama will do something to address the needs of this country, it might not be effective or work out, but something will be done. I just don't get the sense that McCain is going to address this nation's domestic problems. Maybe that stems from the fact that the esteemed President Bush has not done anything domestically that I know of since the creation of the Dept. of Homeland Security, and that was 7 years ago. There is also the No Child Left Behind act too, but that too was 7 years ago. One could cite the tax stimulus as a recent addressing of the domestic issue, but that really didn't do much for me anyways. The $600 I received is sitting nicely in my bank account, which I believe was not the point of the stimulus.

I just want a president who will be addressing the domestic issues at hand and addressing those issues will be the president's legacy. That is the vibe I am getting from Obama more than McCain. Maybe as the next few weeks pan out, I will learn more. However, in the end, I think whoever gets elected, that person's legacy will be how they cleaned up Bush's mess.

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Posted on 09-09-08 09:12:36 PM

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Originally posted by neotransotaku
Maybe I am just naive or too dense or too stupid to realize what is going on, but I sense Obama will do something to address the needs of this country, it might not be effective or work out, but something will be done. I just don't get the sense that McCain is going to address this nation's domestic problems.

One of the big problems with thinking McCain is going to help this country is that he is basically the third term of Bush. Votes with Bush 95% of the time in 2008, and something like 80-90% in 2007 (specific number forgotten).

Maybe that stems from the fact that the esteemed President Bush has not done anything domestically that I know of since the creation of the Dept. of Homeland Security, and that was 7 years ago.

The DHS is an utter joke. Hell, when Katrina was slamming into the Gulf cosat? ... just see for yourself what a mess this administration made it. Hell, countries were offering aid at every turn, but Bush denied it.

There is also the No Child Left Behind act too, but that too was 7 years ago.

NCLB is a disgrace. It has ruined education in this country.

One could cite the tax stimulus as a recent addressing of the domestic issue, but that really didn't do much for me anyways. The $600 I received is sitting nicely in my bank account, which I believe was not the point of the stimulus.

Band-aid where stitches were needed (to quote). Nice, yes, but did very little (nothing) to help solve the problems that are putting us in financial trouble (fuel costs, skyrocketing interest rates, etc.)

Some quick links:
McCain and Obama's tax reform plans -- McCain gives huge tax breaks to the rich and little/nothing to the poor, Obama actually taxes the richest more and gives larger breaks to the smaller.

Healthcare is there too:

McCain favors tax credits of up to $5,000 for families that get health insurance. "We do not believe in coercion and the use of state power to mandate care, coverage or costs." His plan would reduce the number of uninsured by 1 million by 2009 and 5 million by 2013, increasing the national debt by $1.3 trillion over 10 years.

Contrast:

Obama's health care plan includes implementing guaranteed eligibility for affordable health care for all Americans. His plan would reduce the number of uninsured by 18 million by 2009 and 34 million by 2018, covering nearly all children, while raising the national debt by $1.6 trillion over 10 years.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, here: It's a given that nobody can be sure if Obamam will actually make his plans for change a reality or not. But I'd much rather have the hope that they will, rather than the confirmation that they won't.

You are encouraged to read though the comparison page and decide for yourself, though.

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GuyPerfect
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Posted on 09-09-08 09:47:14 PM

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As with most political discussions:

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Posted on 09-09-08 09:50:09 PM

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Originally posted by GuyPerfect
[image]

Thank you for the insightful post.

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Posted on 09-09-08 10:17:03 PM

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Just keeping up with my role model. Regardless of whom I'm voting for, how can you assert that a candidate is a copy of the current president, and that the bad decisions of one will be inherent in the next?

Originally posted by "Dimensional Gate"
One of the big problems with thinking McCain is going to help this country is that he is basically the third term of Bush.

Show me the DNA evidence. The only thing you said was McCain does not plan to lower taxes for the so-called "poor." What are his plans for Bush's policies and organizations like No Child Left Behind or the Patriot Act? Where will he get his consulting when making decisions? What kind of pretzel will he choke on and pass out because of?

What leads you to believe that you have any sort of "confirmation" that McCain will make no attempt to bring about change? The fact that he was spawned by a cell culture taken from Bush? Hardly. The only thing you seem to have against McCain is that you have things against Bush. I wonder if that'll work with Kennedy and Clinton?

Lyskar
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Posted on 09-10-08 12:16:44 AM

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	Metal_Man88
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Originally posted by Fate Testarossa
make it worse for everyone

How.

Originally posted by Fate Testarossa
when it's possible the other side is better

That argument also works for supporting Obama.

Originally posted by Fate Testarossa
That doesn't sound like a very good plan. :\

By the rules you set forth, neither is the very thing you support. Either could be possibly better.

Originally posted by Fate Testarossa
And McCain having said Maverick status and being a POW and being physically affected by that should be a sign that he is NOT a warmonger

We'll be coming back to this one.

Originally posted by Fate Testarossa
he despises it I'm sure

But it's not about him anymore. The party rides with him. He'll have to appoint people from it if he wins. Guess what the average Republican is for.

Originally posted by Fate Testarossa
but he wants to find a way for the greater good of the country

He changed his message from 'Obama has no experience' to 'I will change the country' because the latter idea, originally invoked by Obama, was more popular. He wants to find a way to get the greater part of the electorate by changing his message to suit whatever he wants. See: John Kerry.

Originally posted by Fate Testarossa
much to the discomfort of those that don't WANT to be affected by it because they are not personally involved

The economy going down means we can't hardly go anywhere. Our food supply is limited. It's really hard to go to College. The changes caused by the current Republican administration have made it harder and harder for me and my relatives to live in this country. There is a very real possibility a number of us may have to move out entirely if the country goes in this direction.

How do you call that not being personally involved/effected? The outcome of this could cause the already bad trend to destroy my current way of life utterly.

Originally posted by Fate Testarossa
(and why should they think it'd matter, basically)

Yes. I shouldn't think it should matter. I'll just go live under a bridge for McCain.

Originally posted by Fate Testarossa
to win what it is we're in, not have another Vietnam or something similar.

While all the money goes out to troops in a vague religion/lie based war, my teachers have been fired, my College is losing money, I've lost my job, and sometimes there isn't enough food for me to eat. And you're telling me this war is more important than my life? Especially since more than one recruiter has thought that and harassed me until I told them off about my medical history.

Originally posted by Fate Testarossa
It's the whole country first principle...not the 'me first' principle.

So, in other words, you aren't being effected by this, so it doesn't matter if me, my family, and anyone else who isn't you is killed so you can feel better at night.

Originally posted by Fate Testarossa
That's probably the core difference between both parties right now.

Definitely correct. I have had this same argument on another message board.

Originally posted by Fate Testarossa
And to add on Bush bash, just today Bush is pulling out 8000 troops within the coming months and is in the means of continuing to do so.

This somehow changes what he's done before? Richard Nixon was a demon at home, but abroad he defused the Cold War further. George Bush has the dishonor of helping to revive it with his missile system and hypocritical 'I'll invade what countries I want, point missiles at Russia, then tell Russia to stop copying me'.

Originally posted by Fate Testarossa
We're almost done with this but people need to be patient.

The conflicts in the Middle East date to many thousands of years ago. We've just kept the pattern of Christians invading the middle east up.

Originally posted by Fate Testarossa
If you're not affected by this personally, it's likely you don't understand it in its entirety but doing nothing is no excuse when you can do something and possibly get this taken care of...

Alas, neither candidate has any real plan about this, so...?

Originally posted by Fate Testarossa
and as for the '100 years of war' that I know people are going to push again with McCain, it was more or less a statement of 'until it's done'. When there is evidence of being finished up, why shy away like a scared turtle? Finish it.

You'd have to kill all of the people who disagreed and instate a puppet government. You call this "Almost" finished?

There's more than enough to shy away from here. Our precious resources are being wasted on this cause, which had no reason to be started in the first place. Why should we finish what was ultimately started on lies? We should fix our own falling apart economy before we try again anything like this; and why haven't we intervened in Africa, where starvation and death are everywhere? I mean, there's been token efforts, but the places we should have been... we weren't. And the places we had no business being in? BAM! We're there like white on rice. Spending massive dollars while our economy crumbles.

Originally posted by Fate Testarossa
I think no one likes war here...I don't see how it can be an argument anymore.

Well, if we keep it up, we'll just have no money to make more wars with, so personally I don't see how we'll be able to afford any more at this rate. Forget about whether it's right or wrong.

Nothing personal, though, as you haven't viciously attacked me. I don't have any problem with you; but your ideas appear to be warped by some sort of irrational fear that, if we do not finish Iraq, it will get us; and that, if we do not stand ready to wage war, we will also be swamped. Furthermore, it seems more like Obama is unfamiliar and unknown to you rather than in favor of policies you dislike, sans maybe war stuff. Odd. I would like to hear further on this strange idea. And, indeed--responses to what I say.

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Posted on 09-16-08 03:37:34 AM

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McCain declared in a new TV ad that "our economy is in crisis" and that only he and his running mate, Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin, could fix it. McCain also told voters in Jacksonville, Fla., "The fundamentals of our economy are strong."

Source

McCain has no idea what he's talking about any more. This is amongst more banks failing, the Dow falling another 500 points, and a whole bunch of other crap.

I'm glad my mother is voting for Obama, at least.

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Shadic
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Posted on 09-16-08 05:40:26 PM

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Not that I bet most people here read Sinfest, but it had a pretty good comic on the subject:

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Posted on 09-16-08 05:42:50 PM

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Heheh. I laughed. Anyways, if I had the right to vote (Canadian citizen ) It'd be for Obama. ____________________ Your spirit and my voice, in one combined. The Phantom of the Opera is there, inside your mind... My website!

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Posted on 09-19-08 02:47:18 AM

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Okay, being on the fence, I've switched sides again. But for the first time ever I think I've finally permanantly made up my mind, and I'm voting Obama. I knew I'd probably eventually vote democrat anyway, but I gave McCain a chance.

Only problem was the more I started listening to them the more it was obvious that they really are just going to be more of the same bush/right wing extremist bull crap. All the things in their campaign that was making me lean towards them most likely are just being thrown in to gain votes and sway people like me who are on the line, and a lot of it was just copying Obama anyway. Not to mention the level of hypocrisy in that campaign has recently hit an all time high and is making me sick. "We're the original mavericks. We're REAL change. We fight republicans! Our message: VOTE REPUBLICAN!"

Way to go McCain/Palin! In the past two weeks you've convinvced me to vote Obama more than Obama did his entire campaign.

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Posted on 09-19-08 04:11:18 AM

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Originally posted by Shadic
Not that I bet most people here read Sinfest, but it had a pretty good comic on the subject:

[blah]

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Shadic
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Posted on 09-19-08 04:14:55 AM

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That's an AWESOME image.

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Posted on 09-26-08 06:12:52 PM

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Aparrently, McCain can time-travel. Who knew?

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Shadic
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Posted on 09-26-08 06:44:59 PM (last edited by Shadic at 09-26-08 03:45 PM)

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To win the debate, won't he have to not wuss out on it, and show up?

Edit: Oh hey, he decided to go now.

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Posted on 09-26-08 06:45:33 PM

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I've heard that he has, in fact, decided to show up. So that part's down, at least.

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Posted on 09-26-08 07:05:45 PM

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Anybody else hear about what McCain did to Letterman?

Watching him roast him back is pretty entertaining.

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