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Jul - General Chat - Justice or Mercy? New poll - New thread - New reply
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Just wondering, what would you be looking for on criminals?
Justice
 
 42.9%, 9 votes
Mercy
 
 57.1%, 12 votes
Multi-voting is disabled. 21 users have voted.

Lyskar
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Posted on 05-02-08 01:26:58 AM (last edited by Metal_Man88 at 05-02-08 01:34 AM) Link | Quote

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Edit : Contents of post mostly false and/or dumb. Left intact because deleting it would just be dumber.
Edit Edit: Did I mention the 'angry' smilie is evil for conflicting with HTML? :p

Right and wrong are a false dichotomy, to start with. Furthermore, the most logical option is neither. It does not involve calls to God, religion, or people in high places. It calculates most precisely the damaged caused by a thief and additionally, based on goals, picks the most efficient result.

Opinion-based rulings made calling to tradition may try to achieve these ends, but in their endless search for a quantity that cannot be defined, they can and will make errors, because there is no way to prove that the end and the means belong together. Wheras it is not an opinion if the decision is based on the most factual way of doing a goal which must also be logical (I.E., it is logical to reduce or eliminate the net effect of a theft in order to prevent it from damaging, physically or psychologically, the people involved, and to prevent it from happening again. By Evolution the most effective way of doing this would weed out people negative to the survival of the human race as a whole and promoting those who aren't. Naturally this would result in severe and/or strange rulings, but you were simply positing that "No one can be just because there is no right or wrong and justice, therefore, is undefined." But justice can be boiled down to a logical solution with a certain purpose.

Therefore, right and wrong neither have values nor can they be defined logically nor does the 'logically just' solution need them.

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GuyPerfect
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Posted on 05-02-08 01:42:40 AM Link | Quote
Originally posted by Metal_Man88
It calculates most precisely the damaged caused by a thief and additionally, based on goals, picks the most efficient result.

What is a goal, if not subjective?


Originally posted by Metal_Man88
[...] you were simply positing that "No one can be just because there is no right or wrong and justice, therefore, is undefined."

I said that? I don't remember saying that.


Originally posted by Metal_Man88
Right and wrong are a false dichotomy, to start with.

I suppose this means we're done here.
Lyskar
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Posted on 05-02-08 02:20:32 AM (last edited by Metal_Man88 at 05-02-08 01:48 AM) Link | Quote

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Edit: Tangential nonsense. Bleck.

Originally posted by GuyPerfect

What is a goal, if not subjective?


What is a What, if not subjective?

If the only problem you have with what I'm saying is based upon you wanting me to define to you what every single word in my sentences mean, then no further speech is required--clearly you cannot disprove it in the same language I am using to prove it, or even in your own, besides picking at the syntax.

Besides that, your other arguments have, sans the one about right and wrong (which was true, I needed to define its role--as nonexistant as it was), mostly consisted of picking at small pieces of syntax and mild things, which, in your own words, could be listed as your opinion rather than noting something factually wrong with what I'm saying.

Furthermore, a goal is not subjective if it is decided by the natural logic of existence--I.E. by the science of the issue rather than a person. Got a crime? Determine what the scientifically/logically most effective way to deal with it, and you easily slice out 'right', 'wrong', and 'God' in one fell swoop. You also avoid being subjective--there are only hard facts being considered, and the same judgment is handed out every time that same pattern pops up, disregarding emotional things.

I'm not saying it'd be the best choice, as, oftentimes there are people who, logically, shouldn't exist anymore once they've declared their uselessness to the world, but the point is that the world does not revolve around what you say; I.E. you can claim that defining right and wrong is the only way to make a judgment, but you put the cart before the horse in doing so. The judgment itself defines that, if any. In the case of a logic-based judgment it assigns to right what is logical and to wrong what is illogical. This is not right and wrong as you want to define it, and, truthfully, this is using it as a variable.

But that is what we use right and wrong as. Simply change counties and suddenly the things stored in those variables change...

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GuyPerfect
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Posted on 05-02-08 02:51:15 AM Link | Quote
At least I won't have to worry about you saying that you're right and I'm wrong.
Lyskar
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Posted on 05-02-08 03:04:53 AM (last edited by Metal_Man88 at 05-02-08 01:48 AM) Link | Quote

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Edit: True, but... irrelevant.

Of course--I prefer that which is logical to that which is emotional.

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GuyPerfect
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Posted on 05-02-08 03:08:21 AM Link | Quote
If that's what pleases you...
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Posted on 05-02-08 03:12:52 AM Link | Quote
Profile | Send PM
Real Life Comics
p2pnet.net
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Justice all the way. After all, justice goes the other way, too.

It's justice that a good kid gets a reward, no?

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Posted on 05-02-08 03:21:49 AM Link | Quote
M_M88 what the hell are you going on about? Only GP seems to know what you're talking about.

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[Posted by NightKev]
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Posted on 05-02-08 03:25:10 AM Link | Quote
Originally posted by Metal_Man88

Furthermore, a goal is not subjective if it is decided by the natural logic of existence--I.E. by the science of the issue rather than a person. Got a crime? Determine what the scientifically/logically most effective way to deal with it, and you easily slice out 'right', 'wrong', and 'God' in one fell swoop. You also avoid being subjective--there are only hard facts being considered, and the same judgment is handed out every time that same pattern pops up, disregarding emotional things.

Ok, sorry for being rude but
<knuck> logical justice?
<knuck> thats the biggest fucking bullshit i've read on the internet

Like, seriously, the most scientifically way to deal with a crime? No such a thing exists. Not everthing can be done solely based on 'logic' or whatever. I have no way to prove you this because you'll go LOGICALLY SPEAKING J[(J ^ O)v(J ^ A)]" "?J( L ^ J ^ ¬A ^ ¬O) THEREFORE STEALING IS WRONG. That's just wrong.

What you COULD do is argue it with an evolutionary point of view, where ANYTHING that hinders the propagation of species could be considered "wrong" (therefore, murder would, most of the time, be considered wrong). However, from an evolution pov, you'll never prove that theft is wrong because J[(2.18 ^ 3.14159)v(J ^ 6*10^23)]" "?J( L ^ J ^ ¬A ^ ¬O).

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Posted on 05-02-08 03:48:46 AM Link | Quote
Originally posted by Kagome
Like, seriously, the most scientifically way to deal with a crime? No such a thing exists.

Let's be silly and use the most extreme version of this statement, "there are no crimes" [scientifically!]

...and you would be correct. If you drag in science to things, you have to be careful. "Laws" (or better, rules) are just something created, not by any ulitmate authority.

That is to say, the mere act of creating a rule is defining a "right" and "wrong".
And with defining a rule, you have to define punishments.

Creating punishments brings in more "right" and "wrong". How wrong is stealing something versus destroying something? Injuring somebody versus killing them?

There is no way to drag science into something like this because it's all human mind games. They have no foundation in the elements or in anything else. They can be changed on a whim and it would have no difference on anything.

...

I usually agree with MM88, but this time, he's pretty much full of shit. Sorry.

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Lyskar
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Posted on 05-02-08 04:23:25 AM Link | Quote

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Truthfully I went off on an insane rant after getting annoyed at one thing GuyPerfect said.

Thinking about it one more time, the simple fact is that logic is a tool to be used as people see it, and hence when I speak about the most logical way to solve something like a crime it winds up adding in my bias to it. For otherwise there is no real way to use the tool; it isn't just going to magically solve anything by itself. Similarly, there is legal logic, but that deals with laws, which are based on things people determine, which adds in various biases and opinions, blah blah blah...

Either way, I wouldn't take any of that I just said too seriously, as I more had the image of philibustering in my head when I said it than of actually proving something... meh.



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