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Jul - General Chat - The perils of being self-taught New poll - New thread - New reply
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Tarale
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Posted on 03-24-08 11:31:03 PM (last edited by Tarale at 03-24-08 08:37 PM) Link | Quote
I've never been to university, college, or any thing like that.

I didn't even finish High School. After my father died and some other bad things happened, I just didn't care any more.

So this means that nearly all the skills I know are self-taught.

I've taught myself:
  • HTML and CSS
  • Some PHP
  • Typography
  • Design and Layout
  • Art
  • Computer Troubleshooting
  • Cooking
  • and a whole bunch of other stuff


This is cool and all, but there's a problem. Depending on the complexity of the subject, I'm just never sure I'm "doing it right". I never had a teacher telling me that there's a better way of doing something, or that I'm making a mistake, I don't even know what I am doing correctly for that matter.

Take PHP for example. I have no real clue what I am doing, I can get a few things to work, but I've never had anybody teach me, and I'm sure my code is horribly inefficient, likely insecure, and generally very inelegant. But I'm also sure I'm doing some things right. But I wouldn't be able to tell you which parts of my code are "elegant" and which are "OMFG WTF". I really just don't know, and I have no frame of reference to go from.

Same with HTML and CSS, although with this the problem is more "standards". I think I'm fairly competent with the code itself; although I think I err on the side of inefficiency and messiness with the CSS, but I'm never sure if I'm truly doing it "right". Is my code understandable to others? Is it understandable to screen readers? I think it is... it validates... but yeah.

Art.... I know I need to go learn Anatomy and Physiology, I know that I need to study in order to improve with this. The more I draw the more and more I realise this and now I'm pretty sure that the lack of knowledge of the underlying bone and muscle structure of human beings means that everything I've been doing so far artistically is flawed, failed... I know I'm doing it wrong. I don't know how to fix it.

Cooking at least I don't care. I know what tastes good

But yeah, it's interesting.... while you can teach yourself something, it's hard to ever know if you're doing it the best way... the most efficient way, the most elegant way, not leaving big buggy errors, funky anatomy or what...

The design and typography stuff in particular has me flummoxed. I think this is something else I need actual training in. I think I get it, but I never had any idea that typography was so complex....

The perils of being self-taught, eh.

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Lyskar
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Posted on 03-25-08 12:10:55 AM Link | Quote

Time/Date

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Metal_Man88
Local Moderator
I tend to teach myself, though I find my own teachers.

For example, I learned PHP by reverse engineering Xk and another guy named Toby's code (indirectly) and another one named Glyph Phoenix's.

Therefore I knew I'd have at least something functional, between all of them. And from the people I've talked to about it, I'm right, too.

I took a MySQL course ot further clean it up as well.

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Tarale
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Posted on 03-25-08 12:17:59 AM Link | Quote
I sort of asked Xkeeper questions when I tried to learn PHP, but honestly I don't think I do a good job of PHP. I can get things to work, but I don't think I do things very efficiently, neatly or... well.... well, I guess.

It's functional, sure, though. I mean... it does what it's supposed to do.

If I were to take it more seriously, I'd want somebody to help me refine the code, I'd not like to create unnecessarily bloated stuff for example just because I am awkward at it all; I'd like to learn properly.

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Posted on 03-25-08 12:49:52 AM Link | Quote
See, this only seems to work with me under the principle of three things in no particular order:

1) Have to have an interest in it; I can never force myself to like doing something that I don't want...that's for a lot of things. Even if I eventually get to the point where I'm doing it half-assed, it's only because it's of an interest because it makes it easier for me, not that of a want. Sounds kinda vague, but it really isn't.

2) If it's a passing interest that I obsess over, it'll be something I'm on day after day, month after month and year after year, regardless of how good I am at it.

3) Eventually, if I get better at it, I'll get my ass kicked around for said knowledge by someone much brighter than I and will take that into consideration while I nurse my bruised ego. Perfect example of this: Killer Instinct. Decent before zbattle. Kicked around one thousand times. Far better now.

Now obviously this doesn't mean it only falls under the gaming genre, but that's just my interests. If we wanted to expand out further...coding, creative writing...all that stuff I know I'm not the best in and eventually I get my butt beat around in it and get that much better in it.

But never perfect, then I would not have anything left to learn. Using KI again, found out even more about it even after messing with it for next to 13 years (and YouTube'd it).

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neotransotaku
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Posted on 03-25-08 12:52:03 AM (last edited by neotransotaku at 03-24-08 09:53 PM) Link | Quote
Originally posted by Tarale
I sort of asked Xkeeper questions when I tried to learn PHP, but honestly I don't think I do a good job of PHP. I can get things to work, but I don't think I do things very efficiently, neatly or... well.... well, I guess.

It's functional, sure, though. I mean... it does what it's supposed to do.

If I were to take it more seriously, I'd want somebody to help me refine the code, I'd not like to create unnecessarily bloated stuff for example just because I am awkward at it all; I'd like to learn properly.


With respect to programming, if you take a course on Data Structures that covers running time, then you'll know whether or not you are programming efficiency. Of all the courses I took as a computer science major, I consider that course to be one of the most important course I took. I got introduced to the notion of running time using Data Structures and Algorithms in Java by Goodrich and Tamassia. If you do not get caught up on the details of Java, it should serve you well in terms of getting your feet wet.

In terms of learning on my own, it is how I feel a lot of the time in dental school. My professors are helpful, when they are there. But I feel a majority of my skill isn't really refined without it. I wonder if med students are in the same predicament.
Tarale
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Posted on 03-25-08 12:56:57 AM Link | Quote
Hmm... that's got to be frustrating.

What I dislike about being self-taught is the uncertainty. The feeling that I'm groping about around a certain concept, but never knowing if I manage to hit it dead on. That's where positive feedback comes in handy, so I know when I did manage to nail the subject matter, cause otherwise I'm just floating in my own uncertainties.

Ideally one would hope you can get some of that certainty and feedback when studying, but it sounds like you're not having much luck with your dental school professors in that respect.

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Posted on 03-25-08 03:22:58 AM Link | Quote
Internet community can be a good environment for becomming better at something, even if self-taught. This community in particular has some diverse expertise in just about everything related to computers, so go ahead and start up a thread or two when you have questions.

The more minds that come together to solve an issue, the better chance you have of finding a really good solution, if not the best.
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Posted on 03-25-08 04:08:14 AM Link | Quote
Kas
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Posted on 03-25-08 06:51:30 AM Link | Quote
I'm now pretty competent in PHP, but there's one thing that's really built my confidence in it - I've been doing it for a job. Working with other professionals is really good for getting a solid grounding in something. You have lots of time to spend with a subject and you spend it with other people who are also very good. It's a great combination.

CSS and HTML I feel quite the same as you do now. I mean, I can make any layout I want, but am I using CSS to its potential? Am I using the cascading ability well? I really don't know if I'm using it really well.

I'm also thinking of taking up Ruby on Rails or the Zend PHP Framework in my free time, but it's a whole new tool to learn to use, and I'm going to make so many mistakes in any project I do. It's disheartening...
Tarale
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Posted on 03-26-08 12:27:11 AM Link | Quote
Well, I may soon get the opportunity to use my HTML and CSS skills in a professional capacity, which might help build up my confidence in it.

It's not that I don't feel..... competent... it's that yeah, I don't know if I'm using it to it's full potential, if I'm using dodgy hacks, or generally if I'm doing it... well. I like to do things well.

With regard to asking people on the internet, it's a bit of a double-edged sword. Sometimes you can get really good feedback, and sometimes you don't. The internet has a tendency towards negative feedback—sometimes brutally so— which can be helpful, but doesn't point out the things that one does right and that's just as important to know.

I suppose it's more fun for people to do the "you're doing it wrong, idiot" thing than to point out that they're pleased to see your code is valid...

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Posted on 03-26-08 12:44:31 AM Link | Quote

Well my main problem with those things I've taught and tried to teach myself is motivation- when I have a financial or otherwise interest in something, I can usually get myself to do it, but if it's just for my own enjoyment I often won't bother- motivation comes in random spaced bursts for me... a clear example of this is my HTML ability, wherein I learned enough for a basic layout awhile ago and have barely learned much later, which results in terrible practice like this layout, which features zero CSS and a table-within-a-table, which I know are wrong and frowned upon but couldn't get to work otherwise, and don't have the motivation to learn to use CSS when I can get basically equivalent results with tables.

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