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02-22-18 04:55:54 AM

Jul - General Chat - I wrote a lot of words about stuff, including this place New poll - New thread - New reply
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FPzero
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Posted on 09-26-16 12:04:17 AM Link | Quote
A number of people are still permabanned from each other's communities over stuff years ago. I know Tyty lost his rustedlogic hosting when he was banned here but he never bothered to try and recover or ask for what he had hosted on there. You're probably still banned on SMWC because of all the ban-vading you did many times. I don't think I ever got permabanned from anywhere but who knows, with enough time it might've happened. It's a commonality with users in our related communities.
Xkeeper






Posted on 09-26-16 02:45:50 AM Link | Quote
Tyty would be welcome here again if he asked. Doesn't mean much, and I'm fairly positive he wouldn't care, but the option is there.


As for the permaban, eh, maybe. I don't even remember what originally started it. I think they just generally didn't like being told that having a kid's panties drop off for a credits sequence was a terrible idea.
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Posted on 09-26-16 03:38:06 PM Link | Quote
I don't think he'd ask. He's the type to not resolve things. I might pass it on at some point though but your prediction is most likely correct.

I agreed with you that that was a terrible idea. If nothing else, I think a lot of others eventually came to that realization too. Dunno if they person who orchestrated that is still on the site at all. I remember a random user getting mad at me that I was threatening to pull my levels from the collab if they didn't remove the dumb ending bit.

Did you know, that hack still isn't out? Though if I remember right the release date is sometime this week whether it's finished or not. The staff is going to officially stop supporting SMWCP2's production after nearly 6 years of development, most of which was inactivity due to overambition making the ASM work too hard.
Xkeeper






Posted on 09-26-16 05:55:13 PM Link | Quote
I kind of wish I a picture of that awful sideways Reggie banzai bill they had for the first one, it'd be a great response to the new one.
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Posted on 09-26-16 05:57:34 PM Link | Quote
Dunno if it still exists, but the sprite was definitely posted somewhere here (or in one of the private forums) years ago. I remember the color palette causing me to compare it to Klaus Nomi for some reason.
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Posted on 09-28-16 04:59:17 AM Link | Quote
In a way, I do miss that place. It's been almost four years since I abandoned it entirely for good after one incident, save one night when I went to relocate one of my hacks to give it a playthrough.

I feel like any power I had in the past would be better used these days, though, as opposed to the late 2000s. I remember the whole IRC debacle (shudder), and I'd prefer to forget it.

As for the hack moderation, these days I have a bit more of a grasp on what's good and bad and why things work and don't work. I still think I had at least decent taste in 2008-2009, but I didn't quite completely understand why, to my memory.

Then again, maybe my standards would be a bit too high these days.

(It's funny. I actually talked briefly about how I acted in the past to someone else earlier today. I think a big factor was that I was trapped on 56k when almost everybody else was on a far better connection and could actually do things with each other, yet I was left on the sidelines, so I tended to be impatient and bitter. Sauerbraten was about the only game I could actually play, and rounding up a group for that was difficult.)
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Posted on 10-03-16 10:21:24 PM Link | Quote
Very cool to see some people still keep some records of the history here.

Challenge Games Community was my first AB and forum in general too. I was really into rom hacking with Metroid and MetEdit (?) back then. I think I even beat SMB3 Challenge with save stage abuse haha.

Vagla is the one random dude I still remember from back then, my first forum friend I guess. Wonder what he's up to. I remember he made some offshoot community from CGC, but forget the name.

I missed the main AB's glory days I think, but was a mod or admin before the great collapse with the weird upgrades and ||bass stuff. After that it's just all a blur to me.

Sad to see social media has basically ended most forum communities and most of these places can't even be seen again via archive.org and whatnot. Internet time and history is a very strange thing.
Robbie Rage

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Posted on 11-24-16 01:15:05 PM Link | Quote
I know I'm late to the party, but I want to thank you Xkeeper for writing up all of this. As an oldbie from the days of the first incarnation who has spent the past few days trying to figure out what went wrong, this seemed to answer most of my questions. So, kudos to you.

However, I find myself wondering what is really desired here. Is the end goal to build a community like the original Acmlmboard, or improve this one as much as possible?

If the goal is to improve this community, I like the proposed idea of a time / post based "lock" on users to open up certain areas of this board. I definitely see the need / original intention behind a board like Jul, so I really wouldn't worry about being all things to all people. Jul is tough enough to find as it is, so I can't see a measure like this affecting the core community here very much at all.

However, if the goal is to build a vibrant, active community open to a wider audience, perhaps a different approach would be helpful. From what I've seen thus far, the people who ask about someone "creating a new community" are often really asking about bringing back the best parts of a previously existing one. In this case, referring to the robust community that was the Acmlm's Board I1 & I2 era.

If the goal is to create a bigger, well-regulated community, I wonder if integration with the only other major semi-active AB in a Google search, Kafuka, is the way to go. Those that remain on that forum seem to carry the same spirit of "wisdom with age" and the desire for a better community that this place does. It just seems a bit odd to me that two communities with members who have similar values and goals don't team up to a common end.

There's a lot I could say on this subject, but right now I'm more curious about where people stand. What is it that people really want here?
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Posted on 12-22-16 03:11:37 AM Link | Quote
Ah yes, SMWCentral, aka what stole a lot of activity from Acmlm Board 2/Board 2 (I honestly don't remember if it happened before/after the rename). Funny you mention that, Kafuka Board was intended as a sorta reboot, a sort of resetting from the bad will that some people had with Board 2. There are some politics involved I don't want to go into publically though, but I can say that in retroperpsective most past drama seems so very dumb now.

Generally though I feel that the age of small communities has long passed, which is kinda a shame.
Xkeeper






Posted on 12-22-16 08:32:16 PM (last edited by Xkeeper at 12-22-16 08:37:45 PM) Link | Quote
Originally posted by Robbie Rage
I know I'm late to the party, but I want to thank you Xkeeper for writing up all of this. As an oldbie from the days of the first incarnation who has spent the past few days trying to figure out what went wrong, this seemed to answer most of my questions. So, kudos to you.

If it makes you feel any better, I'm even later.

There were a lot of problems with the old communities, and a lot of rookie mistakes that I learned from. But the past is the past, and there's not much we can do about it in the present.


However, I find myself wondering what is really desired here. Is the end goal to build a community like the original Acmlmboard, or improve this one as much as possible?

There wasn't really a goal. I don't think there can be a community here any more, beyond what there is now; we don't have a focus beyond TCRF, which is generally already well-served by its wiki and IRC channel. I just wanted to talk about what things used to be for a while.


If the goal is to improve this community, I like the proposed idea of a time / post based "lock" on users to open up certain areas of this board. I definitely see the need / original intention behind a board like Jul, so I really wouldn't worry about being all things to all people. Jul is tough enough to find as it is, so I can't see a measure like this affecting the core community here very much at all.

I don't really understand what you mean by this. (But you haven't been here in a while, so I'm worried I won't get to find out.) If you mean the "hidden community" portion, that isn't a time or post-based lock as much as it is a "we think we can trust someone" privilege. I don't think it can be revoked or expanded greatly without potentially opening up worse issues, as there is a lot of private stuff that has been posted.

To be honest, the system would probably have worked better if it was more like a journal instead of a forum, so people could choose who could see their threads (e.g. certain groups or "friends"). But this was before Twitter or other social networks really existed.



However, if the goal is to build a vibrant, active community open to a wider audience, perhaps a different approach would be helpful. From what I've seen thus far, the people who ask about someone "creating a new community" are often really asking about bringing back the best parts of a previously existing one. In this case, referring to the robust community that was the Acmlm's Board I1 & I2 era.

The community of the old days was largely formed around ROM Hacking, which is a dying art, and only getting moreso every day. Even back then it was starting to fade from its absolute heyday, and at this point it's better served by many other communities out there — even, ugh, RHDN.

The concept of a "general bullshit" forum has largely only succeeded when you reach "critical mass", a size so large that its size alone attracts new people. Even Something Awful has been falling behind that; someone's done some research showing that new user registrations and activity in general are down over the last few years by quite a bit. Social media, micro-updates, and other things have largely killed off the old forum.


If the goal is to create a bigger, well-regulated community, I wonder if integration with the only other major semi-active AB in a Google search, Kafuka, is the way to go. Those that remain on that forum seem to carry the same spirit of "wisdom with age" and the desire for a better community that this place does. It just seems a bit odd to me that two communities with members who have similar values and goals don't team up to a common end.


Kafuka is a board that was created from the fragment of board2 that was left when I got forcibly exiled from it. I have absolutely no desire to try to merge the communities or staff at all (and I do not plan on relinquishing my control over Jul, because... well, split control like that is a disaster. I've already dealt with this enough times and I don't want to do it again.

The people from there are welcome here any time, mind. But I suspect that most of them won't want to come visit That is a little mean-spirited and doesn't convey what I meant. To put it a better way, "I don't think most of them will want to leave their (similarly) established community to migrate here". They might visit, but Kafuka is "home" to them, much like Jul is home to me.


There's a lot I could say on this subject, but right now I'm more curious about where people stand. What is it that people really want here?

I used to want to see this community thrive, but I think right now I am okay with seeing it just survive. This forum — or at least, the community that exists here and on IRC — is comfortable and known. There are still some problems, but it's a familiar place I can be with friends.

I don't think that this place will ever be anything different. That's not to say that I would actively be against it somehow revitalizing, but right now, I don't really intend to try to do anything to solve it.


Originally posted by Ailure
Ah yes, SMWCentral, aka what stole a lot of activity from Acmlm Board 2/Board 2 (I honestly don't remember if it happened before/after the rename).

SMW Central happened at the end of the second incarnation/third incarnation, due to the requirement of "approval" to post in those forums. (In retrospect, stricter moderation would have been better, but this forum doesn't really have good moderator tools.) Enough people got fed up that they moved.

You can still see the echoes of the community ethos in things like that awful "panty drop" thing. That would have never flown here (and the person who suggested it probably would have gotten a hefty ban).


Funny you mention that, Kafuka Board was intended as a sorta reboot, a sort of resetting from the bad will that some people had with Board 2. There are some politics involved I don't want to go into publicly though, but I can say that in retrospective most past drama seems so very dumb now.

Generally though I feel that the age of small communities has long passed, which is kinda a shame.

Founded by Emuz, of course. I don't understand how people can stand that person. He always makes grand plans about how he's going to make (thing) wonderful again, and then proceeds to vanish after getting everyone worked up.

I still haven't forgotten how my time at Acmlm's Board II ended.
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Posted on 12-23-16 09:43:13 AM (last edited by Ailure at 12-23-16 09:51:42 AM) Link | Quote
Emuz means well most of the time, but it did really boil down to people no that having that much time anymore (the failed post tRO server revival comes to mind in particular).
Originally posted by Xkeeper
SMW Central happened at the end of the second incarnation/third incarnation, due to the requirement of "approval" to post in those forums. (In retrospect, stricter moderation would have been better, but this forum doesn't really have good moderator tools.) Enough people got fed up that they moved.

I remember quite well it was both the most active and yet infamous part of the forum due to the amount of users flooding in. And yeah, stricter moderation would been better as opposed to restricting posting, but the main negative thing about the old Acmlm board culture (that did seep into both Board2 and JUL culture afterwards) was the elitism, people liked to counter ignorance by being mean even if a lot of the time it might been someone younger or less experienced, and thus probably only helped to limit the flow of fresh blood (but we covered this elsewhere already before I think ).

Nowadays I focus mostly on cutting off assholes early and fast when moderating places, especially if it's people who like to edge the line on whats allowed. That was another problem with the older Acmlm Board moderation unfortunatly, some troublemakers got to stick around for way too long.
Robbie Rage

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Posted on 12-23-16 09:57:31 AM Link | Quote
Thanks for the reply! I'll try to address the main points here as best as I can:

Originally posted by Xkeeper
There wasn't really a goal. I don't think there can be a community here any more, beyond what there is now; we don't have a focus beyond TCRF, which is generally already well-served by its wiki and IRC channel. I just wanted to talk about what things used to be for a while.


I had a feeling that was the case, but with the odd comment from others here and there about new users and such made me question that. That, and occasionally other users from the Acmlmboard "universe" will reference other boards and each other. So I was left a bit confused as to what people (and you) wanted out of a place like Jul and other Acmlmboards.

Originally posted by Xkeeper
I don't really understand what you mean by this. (But you haven't been here in a while, so I'm worried I won't get to find out.) If you mean the "hidden community" portion, that isn't a time or post-based lock as much as it is a "we think we can trust someone" privilege. I don't think it can be revoked or expanded greatly without potentially opening up worse issues, as there is a lot of private stuff that has been posted.


What I was referencing here was indeed the "hidden community" portion. From what I've seen, Jul is hidden and niche enough that, at the time, I believed that alone could work as a deterrent. I thought that those who actually find this place, stick around for a long enough period of time, and make enough posts could eventually prove themselves trustworthy enough.

However, this might only help if an attempted expansion of activity is what people actually want. A solution to something that isn't a problem is no solution at all.

Originally posted by Xkeeper
The community of the old days was largely formed around ROM Hacking, which is a dying art, and only getting moreso every day. Even back then it was starting to fade from its absolute heyday, and at this point it's better served by many other communities out there — even, ugh, RHDN.

The concept of a "general bullshit" forum has largely only succeeded when you reach "critical mass", a size so large that its size alone attracts new people. Even Something Awful has been falling behind that; someone's done some research showing that new user registrations and activity in general are down over the last few years by quite a bit. Social media, micro-updates, and other things have largely killed off the old forum.


This is one point that I do not fully agree with. While the backbone of the old forum was indeed ROM hacking, not everyone who showed up and stayed was a ROM Hacker or a programmer. I certainly was neither of these things. I was into role playing and video games, so the general Mario/RPG aesthetic got my attention, and the RP forums got me to stay beyond the "general bullshit" forum need.

While mediums like Facebook, Twitter, and Discord might scratch that online social "itch" for some people, Acmlmboards like Jul play a much different role in practice. Any community has it's own unique "tone" not just from the unique features that it provides, but also from the users it brings in and maintains. This difference in community tone and service, while not as gigantic as in it's heyday, can still have a unique appeal like it does for us.

Put another way, if Facebook is like a Big Mac in a shopping mall food court, places like this are like freshly grilled burgers in the backyard. You still get fed, but the quality and flavor is vastly different, and will have a much greater appeal for many.

Originally posted by Xkeeper
Kafuka is a board that was created from the fragment of board2 that was left when I got forcibly exiled from it. I have absolutely no desire to try to merge the communities or staff at all (and I do not plan on relinquishing my control over Jul, because... well, split control like that is a disaster. I've already dealt with this enough times and I don't want to do it again.


I feel like I didn't phrase this one quite right. When I spoke of "integration", I was speaking purely on a general user level, never from an administrative one. I know fully well that formally attempting to do something like that is a virtual logistical impossibility, and would just tear communities apart even further. Again, during the I1 and I2 days, most of the staff issues really didn't affect me as a normal user much at all until a board reset occurred. I have always been just a normal user, and cannot truly speak from any perspective other than that.

Originally posted by Xkeeper
The people from there are welcome here any time, mind. But I suspect that most of them won't want to come visit That is a little mean-spirited and doesn't convey what I meant. To put it a better way, "I don't think most of them will want to leave their (similarly) established community to migrate here". They might visit, but Kafuka is "home" to them, much like Jul is home to me.


This is more of what I was referring to, and that's the beauty of the internet. "Migration" isn't really nesscessary in a case like this. People can freely post and "intermingle" on all boards, which is really more of what I had in mind.

As for the "home board" idea, I feel like that isn't quite as universal as it may seem. I don't really see myself as being tied down to one particular place. It just so happens that Kafuka as it stands today has a lot more of the old Acmlmboard features and vibe that I missed, so the vast majority of my activity will go there rather than Jul. I'll still pop in and lurk around here every so often, I just feel less inclined to post more frequently here than I do on Kafuka.

Originally posted by Xkeeper
I used to want to see this community thrive, but I think right now I am okay with seeing it just survive. This forum — or at least, the community that exists here and on IRC — is comfortable and known. There are still some problems, but it's a familiar place I can be with friends.

I don't think that this place will ever be anything different. That's not to say that I would actively be against it somehow revitalizing, but right now, I don't really intend to try to do anything to solve it.


And that just confirms what I kinda figured. I always knew Jul was your baby, and the privacy of yourself and it's core users seemed understandably paramount. When I first made my post, I confess that I was on a bit of a nostalgia high and wanted to see what was possible to recreate the best of the I1 and I2 days while learning from the past. I don't blame you at all for wanting to retain what good you still have here.

Originally posted by Ailure
the main negative thing about the old Acmlm board culture (that did seep into both Board2 and JUL culture afterwards) was the elitism, people liked to counter ignorance by being mean even if a lot of the time it might been someone younger or less experienced, and thus probably only helped to limit the flow of fresh blood (but we covered this elsewhere already before I think ).


Now THIS I remember. For whatever reason, much of the audience of I1 and I2 did skew kinda young, and I was there too. I also remember that some of my earliest I1 posts were some of the absolute stupidest posts ever typed, and it was a valuable period of learning for me. Like it was said, if you end up pushing too hard, you end up losing someone who could eventually grow into a better member of the community.

While this may not be an issue on Jul so much anymore, I've seen it elsewhere, and I really don't care to ever see it again.
Xkeeper






Posted on 12-23-16 02:03:10 PM Link | Quote
So many words, so little time...

Originally posted by Ailure
Emuz means well most of the time, but it did really boil down to people no that having that much time anymore (the failed post tRO server revival comes to mind in particular).
Originally posted by Xkeeper
SMW Central happened at the end of the second incarnation/third incarnation, due to the requirement of "approval" to post in those forums. (In retrospect, stricter moderation would have been better, but this forum doesn't really have good moderator tools.) Enough people got fed up that they moved.

I remember quite well it was both the most active and yet infamous part of the forum due to the amount of users flooding in. And yeah, stricter moderation would been better as opposed to restricting posting, but the main negative thing about the old Acmlm board culture (that did seep into both Board2 and JUL culture afterwards) was the elitism, people liked to counter ignorance by being mean even if a lot of the time it might been someone younger or less experienced, and thus probably only helped to limit the flow of fresh blood (but we covered this elsewhere already before I think ).

Nowadays I focus mostly on cutting off assholes early and fast when moderating places, especially if it's people who like to edge the line on whats allowed. That was another problem with the older Acmlm Board moderation unfortunatly, some troublemakers got to stick around for way too long.


Unfortunately, meaning well doesn't mean much if your choices still cause problems. Interfering with things just to bail out when the metaphorical going gets tough is a way to disaster, and it's one of the various things that led board2 to ruin (to say nothing of the other various projects he's tried to resurrect).

The elitism thing has been known for a while. It isn't helped by some people who think they're better than others. But I start to wonder if some of it wasn't partially from wearing-out of patience? If you have to deal with a constant stream of garbage posts, you'll eventually become less and less inclined to give them any leeway. You get so sick and tired of it that it's easier to just degrade and belittle the other than to work towards helping them grow.

As for troublemakers, yes, that happened too. There was a lot of times where it was easier to let things slide than it was to take action. That actually came back to bite me, if you remember things like blackhole89 getting upset about someone getting banned; even though they were causing problems, he disagreed about it so strongly that... well. Unfortunately, that kind of leeway lends itself towards forming an unstable equilibrium; you don't want to hand out dicipline to people who are being mild jerks for fear of turning the others into much larger jerks... but this can be seen by others as condoning their behavior, too, so people who are less tolerant of people being assholes are more inclined to leave.

Eevee wrote a lot of words on the subject of moderation already, which I pretty much agree with. If you've been here long enough, you'll see exactly what they describe in the history of this community.


On a side note, though, at least I can say that we didn't ever drop to RHDN levels by allowing the BadderHacks crew to exist here at all. Score one for us.
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Posted on 12-23-16 07:11:37 PM Link | Quote
I'm pretty sure that the old members miss when everybody actually got along and there wasn't so much drama against many communities. Times have changed.
Xkeeper






Posted on 12-24-16 08:47:57 PM Link | Quote
Easy to say, but I don't think I agree (and I hate the word "drama" getting used so much); back then there was still plenty of strife between members and staff. It only really reached a breaking point when the forums themselves were ruined over it (i.e. when I2 because I3, I3 because AB2, AB2 because b2/Jul, etc.)

I would even go as far as to argue that right now, at least here, everybody genearlly does get along; it's more just that we don't have time to really invest in being angry at people when Real Life™ occupies most of our time. The only major events I can see "recently" that caused a major problem were things like GamerGate and Trump, which are the kind of things that would cause a major split in any community that's as diverse as this one.

Xkeeper






Posted on 12-24-16 09:08:06 PM Link | Quote
Sorry it has taken so long to reply. The problem with megaposts like this is that it's very hard to digest and reply, because there are so many different chains of thought. I will try to be more concise this time.


Originally posted by Robbie Rage
What I was referencing here was indeed the "hidden community" portion. From what I've seen, Jul is hidden and niche enough that, at the time, I believed that alone could work as a deterrent. I thought that those who actually find this place, stick around for a long enough period of time, and make enough posts could eventually prove themselves trustworthy enough.

However, this might only help if an attempted expansion of activity is what people actually want. A solution to something that isn't a problem is no solution at all.

The private sections of the forum have been getting officially discouraged by me, to try to shift the (admittedly little) posting that happens there into the public areas, with an exception for things that need to be private. This is also why #x has been a little more active than usual, actually.

The original solution of having the private forums was a ham-fisted solution to a problem of wanting a private place to discuss things; originally this whole board was private, as a side-area for personal friends, and it suddenly got thrust into public view when the board2 split happened. I just kind of kept going down that path, and it retrospect it wasn't the best idea.



This is one point that I do not fully agree with. While the backbone of the old forum was indeed ROM hacking, not everyone who showed up and stayed was a ROM Hacker or a programmer. I certainly was neither of these things. I was into role playing and video games, so the general Mario/RPG aesthetic got my attention, and the RP forums got me to stay beyond the "general bullshit" forum need.

While mediums like Facebook, Twitter, and Discord might scratch that online social "itch" for some people, Acmlmboards like Jul play a much different role in practice. Any community has it's own unique "tone" not just from the unique features that it provides, but also from the users it brings in and maintains. This difference in community tone and service, while not as gigantic as in it's heyday, can still have a unique appeal like it does for us.

Put another way, if Facebook is like a Big Mac in a shopping mall food court, places like this are like freshly grilled burgers in the backyard. You still get fed, but the quality and flavor is vastly different, and will have a much greater appeal for many.

I wasn't trying to imply that ROM hacking was the sole reason for the existence of Acmlm's Board's activity, but more that it acted like a "focal point"; a better real-life example might be something of a club for people about (thing). People initially come to it because of the thing, but as time goes on the group may branch out into unrelated activities (say, going to a movie on the weekend, meetups, etc). People start bringing their friends, who aren't interested in the original thing, and suddenly you have a general-purpose group of friends that had its roots in one thing but is now mostly focused on something else.

Acmlm's Board was that. People came for ROM hacking, but stayed because of things like the Story Forum or the forum games (and the news, back when the internet wasn't as aggregated as it is now); as those parts grew, other people joined for them, and so on. But without any of those things, and without a "critical mass", you can't just start a group and have it survive. There's way too much competition on that front from social media now.




As for the "home board" idea, I feel like that isn't quite as universal as it may seem. I don't really see myself as being tied down to one particular place. It just so happens that Kafuka as it stands today has a lot more of the old Acmlmboard features and vibe that I missed, so the vast majority of my activity will go there rather than Jul. I'll still pop in and lurk around here every so often, I just feel less inclined to post more frequently here than I do on Kafuka.

I find it a little ironic that you talk about having more of the old Acmlmboard features when this forum flat-out is the old Acmlmboard.

As for the vibe, though, I understand. Jul was always a little elitist "focused on quality of posts", because for a long time we saw the kind of rapid, low-content posting as spam that needed to be removed. It was a fairly oppressing atmosphere and it drove some people away (what fun is there to be had if you can't relax and just chill?). I've tried to shake that for now, but there isn't really enough activity here to make a difference.



And that just confirms what I kinda figured. I always knew Jul was your baby, and the privacy of yourself and it's core users seemed understandably paramount. When I first made my post, I confess that I was on a bit of a nostalgia high and wanted to see what was possible to recreate the best of the I1 and I2 days while learning from the past. I don't blame you at all for wanting to retain what good you still have here.

Jul is... I wouldn't say it was my baby, as much as it was an increasingly frustrated series of attempts to recreate the nostalgia we felt with the original Acmlm's Board, all the way back to the beginning. The problem was that, not only were we a little naive with our goal... but that the atmosphere on the internet had been changing, too. It has been a losing battle for 10 long years.

That is what I mean when I say I have kind of accepted the fate Jul has now. I would love to see this place somewhat active again, but... part of it was just that, back then, a lot of us were unemployed, or at school, and had a lot more free time to just piss away on the internet. These days, there's so much less of that time, and so much more pressure to be "productive", that just chatting feels like a waste of time. I barely check this place any more because I'm usually so busy doing other things...



Now THIS I remember. For whatever reason, much of the audience of I1 and I2 did skew kinda young, and I was there too. I also remember that some of my earliest I1 posts were some of the absolute stupidest posts ever typed, and it was a valuable period of learning for me. Like it was said, if you end up pushing too hard, you end up losing someone who could eventually grow into a better member of the community.

While this may not be an issue on Jul so much anymore, I've seen it elsewhere, and I really don't care to ever see it again.

I feel like I mentioned it before, but it's very hard to tell the difference between someone who is being intentionally obtuse (being hard to work with or understand on purpose, trying to troll, etc) and someone who is legitimately learning and will be receptive to feedback... especially when you also have to weigh the feelings of other users who are getting annoyed by it. If they turn out to be bad, you've just ended up driving off people who were getting tired of what was legitimately garbage; if they turn out to be good, you've potentially driven someone away.

Administrating isn't a black and white affair, and there is a lot of room to make mistakes. I will be the first in line to admit that we have made many over the years.


Hmm, I don't think I really managed to be concise this time. Sorry. These sorts of things tend to draw out the big effort posts from me, I guess.
Lunaria

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Posted on 12-26-16 03:40:42 PM Link | Quote
Originally posted by Xkeeper
As for the vibe, though, I understand. Jul was always a little elitist "focused on quality of posts", because for a long time we saw the kind of rapid, low-content posting as spam that needed to be removed. It was a fairly oppressing atmosphere and it drove some people away (what fun is there to be had if you can't relax and just chill?). I've tried to shake that for now, but there isn't really enough activity here to make a difference.
I'm not sure if I entirely agree with the idea of "quality posts" always being the main goal. The elitism has always been there in the background of this forum, no argument there. But we legitimately have a system in place (syndromes) that encourages unhinged posting in massive qualities. And whenever one of those really large post sprees happened, the quality went out the window pretty darn quickly.
Xkeeper






Posted on 12-26-16 08:38:15 PM (last edited by Xkeeper at 12-26-16 08:38:25 PM) Link | Quote
And how often did syndromes happen? A better idea might be to take a look at the ACS, which was cancelled because it "contributed to people posting for the sake of posting", then occasionally brought back as a "maybe it will help encourage activity" thing.
Drag
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Posted on 12-27-16 01:57:56 AM Link | Quote
Returning to facebook and twitter for a moment, I've pretty much stopped using facebook because it got tiring. It's your friends and family basically shouting into the void, getting some likes and comments, but nothing really worthwhile otherwise. Most of the time, it's just someone else's meme being shared, and it's usually some kind of political image or some kind of empowerment image that really is unnecessary and it's all you see in your feed. Then you get people talking about working out, or visiting Germany, or posting a bottomless barrel of a newborn baby photos (one time, it was a pic of a baby who had literally just been extracted). As much as I like keeping in touch, it didn't feel meaningful; I'd post updates and people would see them, but I wouldn't get anything out of the attention, and it'd be pointless to post about programming or game design or any other expert topics because only 2 of the possibly 100 friends I had would understand any of it. I'd see updates from friends and family (a handful close, the vast majority distant), and I just wouldn't care about most of it. That's not to say I don't care about those people, but everything was mundane and wasn't making me think, and with that realization comes the realization that the same thing happens when you post something.

Twitter is too short term and attention-deficit to hold any meaningful conversation on, plus it's 100% public and the same thing happens as on facebook. I have 50 followers, I follow people who have thousands of followers, nothing I say will reach anyone, versus things these more popular people say. Twitter is ok if all you want to do is dump your thoughts into the void, but for getting much else out of it, you're boned unless you're a cat doing something funny or are megapopular. Plus, bots follow you and that's not helping. That and there's a higher stranger-danger; if someone makes you uncomfortable, they can do it to no limit, there's nobody you can go to for help, all you can do is block, which is fine and dandy up until they start making sock puppet accounts. Also, most public spaces are full of ads and just want to maximize the ability to make money off you.

Maybe I'm oldschool, but a community feels more productive than any social media sites do. Only a fraction of the people here know me, but I know you all likely have similar interests to mine, and I know that a lot more people will see anything I post here versus knowing only your 50 followers will ever see you said anything before it's lost. All social media is like that to me, the only time I ever get anything meaningful is when I post here or on nesdev, which thank goodness it exists, or else I'd have nobody to talk to about supernerd stuff. I don't care about being popular at all, and therefore, will never have a strong presence on social media, so someone like me benefits from a fixed community versus a vastly random and public space to shout in.

That last paragraph is the reason message boards will never fully die and why this place will still be around (in some form) 10 years from now. It won't be as active as 10 years ago, and it won't have the same rate of new users, but it'll never die because it provides stuff that the public spaces don't.
BMF54123

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Posted on 12-27-16 03:18:42 AM Link | Quote
"Shouting into the void" is a pretty apt description of the modern Internet in general.
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