Jul -- The Cutting Room Floor: Nintendo 3DS games

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Posted on 06-11-13 11:10:51 PM

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Originally posted by omega59
So, I was on the web a while back, checking on 3D brew, and I found out a few things about the 3DS, and how much it'd cost to find a way to hack one. For the 3D Brew project, I think they needed $2000 to get around the security chip, they're doing so by opening the thing up, which is expensive since it's supposedly 10 layers. So how many of you would be interested in looking at 3DS games, I'd say Star Fox 64 3D and Ocarina of Time 3D would be the easier ones to crack for starters. I think in OoT 3D, they left in the Sakura (I think) test level, since a pre-release Japanese video had it, with two Wolfoes I believe. So what are your thoughts on this?

I would love to look into 3DS games like OoT3D, NSMB2, Super Mario 3D Land and Virtue's Last Reward. The problem is that even though ROMs are being dumped, we have no way to tinker with the games. To my knowledge, there are no programs out there yet like Tinke to search through game files. Hell, I don't even think there are emulators with simple memory editors or even emulators to begin with.

I am more than ready to start looking into 3DS games but we just don't have the tools to look into 3DS games. Until then, the best we can do for 3DS games is list regional differences like for Mario Kart 7.

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omega59
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Posted on 06-12-13 04:00:35 AM (last edited by omega59 at 06-12-13 04:04:39 AM)

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Well, see if you can get some people to donate to 3D Brew. They need $2000 to crack into the security chip, and get into the system's coding itself. This chip is what allows games to be read. Unless someone's lucky enough to steal a Developer's 3DS (they're at Gamestop), we've gotta get into that chip. In fact, there's a PC utility on 3Dbrew's site, look them up on Google. The utility's called 3DS Explorer, not a fancy name, but they've gotten the files open.

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Posted on 06-12-13 05:14:38 AM

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The fundraiser ended last month. Guess it's just waiting now.

omega59
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Posted on 06-12-13 06:59:34 AM

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Hmm... I checked today, and it was still asking for donations... Either way, I'm heavily interested in what's inside 3DS games, so much space compared to what's actually used...

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Posted on 06-12-13 02:46:34 PM

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Originally posted by omega59
So, I was on the web a while back, checking on 3D brew, and I found out a few things about the 3DS, and how much it'd cost to find a way to hack one. For the 3D Brew project, I think they needed $2000 to get around the security chip, they're doing so by opening the thing up, which is expensive since it's supposedly 10 layers. So how many of you would be interested in looking at 3DS games, I'd say Star Fox 64 3D and Ocarina of Time 3D would be the easier ones to crack for starters. I think in OoT 3D, they left in the Sakura (I think) test level, since a pre-release Japanese video had it, with two Wolfoes I believe. So what are your thoughts on this?

Could you post the link to the video of OoT 3D?

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Posted on 06-12-13 09:23:06 PM

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Post #5028 · Wed 130612 172306

Well, hackers have already managed to run code on the 3DS, but only through a very complex hack where they basically patched into the interface between the CPU and RAM chips. Lots of soldering involved. But that gives them a platform to stand on to probe the system from the inside, which is usually how exploits are found... Decapping the chips is another interesting technique, but it's a gamble whether it'll lead to anything.

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omega59
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Posted on 06-12-13 10:40:14 PM

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Originally posted by Hiccup
Originally posted by omega59
So, I was on the web a while back, checking on 3D brew, and I found out a few things about the 3DS, and how much it'd cost to find a way to hack one. For the 3D Brew project, I think they needed $2000 to get around the security chip, they're doing so by opening the thing up, which is expensive since it's supposedly 10 layers. So how many of you would be interested in looking at 3DS games, I'd say Star Fox 64 3D and Ocarina of Time 3D would be the easier ones to crack for starters. I think in OoT 3D, they left in the Sakura (I think) test level, since a pre-release Japanese video had it, with two Wolfoes I believe. So what are your thoughts on this?

Could you post the link to the video of OoT 3D?

Let's just say it was one of those nights where you had stayed up far too long for your own good before school, and I was dead tired. I never got the link, but I saw it on an article, which had a picture of the specific frames. They thought it was a Cave of Ordeals, but they've never seen the level before. It had the same old N64 textures, I think the title of the article was "Cave of Ordeals in Ocarina of Time 3D?" It was prerelease. I play the debug ROM when I'm downloading things/copying large things, so I know the level TOO well, I like facing Dark Link.

omega59
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Posted on 06-12-13 10:43:24 PM

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Dude, it's on the first page of the Google search... looks like it got hype, heheh.

Cuber456

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Posted on 06-12-13 11:45:00 PM

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Originally posted by omega59
Originally posted by Hiccup
Originally posted by omega59
So, I was on the web a while back, checking on 3D brew, and I found out a few things about the 3DS, and how much it'd cost to find a way to hack one. For the 3D Brew project, I think they needed $2000 to get around the security chip, they're doing so by opening the thing up, which is expensive since it's supposedly 10 layers. So how many of you would be interested in looking at 3DS games, I'd say Star Fox 64 3D and Ocarina of Time 3D would be the easier ones to crack for starters. I think in OoT 3D, they left in the Sakura (I think) test level, since a pre-release Japanese video had it, with two Wolfoes I believe. So what are your thoughts on this?

Could you post the link to the video of OoT 3D?

Let's just say it was one of those nights where you had stayed up far too long for your own good before school, and I was dead tired. I never got the link, but I saw it on an article, which had a picture of the specific frames. They thought it was a Cave of Ordeals, but they've never seen the level before. It had the same old N64 textures, I think the title of the article was "Cave of Ordeals in Ocarina of Time 3D?" It was prerelease. I play the debug ROM when I'm downloading things/copying large things, so I know the level TOO well, I like facing Dark Link.

Honestly, a story like this only shows how gullible people are

.

"Hey look! Young link is in the forest temple surrounded by wolves! This must be the cave of ordeals! :specialed:"

Way to jump to conclusions without any real evidence to support it. I wouldn't be surprised if trolls pull the same thing with Wind Waker HD but I guess I am just ranting now

.

Until someone is able to crack the 3DS and provide an emulator, the only thing we can do is just patiently wait

.

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omega59
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Posted on 06-13-13 12:07:32 AM

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As OoT 3D is the same basic coding, couldn't you just use 3DS Explorer to try and dump the files and see if you can inject some maps into a ROM of OoT on the N64? I believe it's possible, considering that it looks like they didn't upgrade the renderer from the N64, the lag issues almost confirm this, considering how much the 3DS can put out graphically. Resident Evil Revelations is a great example of what the 3DS can handle, I don't think the HD ports redid the main characters' models.

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Posted on 06-13-13 12:50:08 AM

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Originally posted by omega59
As OoT 3D is the same basic coding, couldn't you just use 3DS Explorer to try and dump the files and see if you can inject some maps into a ROM of OoT on the N64?

I not saying it is possible or impossible. What I am saying is that I honestly don't know. I have never messed around with OoT (or MM for that matter). The only Zelda game I have experience hacking/screwing with is TWW. I have no idea what are standard file formats for OoT and I have no idea what are standard file formats for OoT3D. I am doubting that both versions of the game have the same file formats so, at least in my mind, I don't think it will be as easy as extracting a file from OoT3D, placing it into OoT and starting the game up. I would be happy to be proved wrong though.

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Posted on 06-13-13 12:52:43 AM (last edited by xdaniel at 06-13-13 12:53:42 AM)

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>>ESTABLISHING LINK...DONE.    >>FETCHING POST DATA...DONE.    >>EXECUTING POSTDISP.BIN...

As I have explained before "model" data in OoT on the N64 is far more low-level than any normal, actual model format like Wavefront OBJs or 3DS (= 3ds Max, not the handheld) or what have you. You will not be able to take 3DS maps and inject them into OoT N64 as-is - if anything, you'd need to convert them to ex. .obj, then import them into OoT using ex. SharpOcarina, which defeats the purpose.

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Posted on 06-13-13 03:56:35 AM

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Originally posted by xdaniel
As I have explained before "model" data in OoT on the N64 is far more low-level than any normal, actual model format like Wavefront OBJs or 3DS (= 3ds Max, not the handheld) or what have you. You will not be able to take 3DS maps and inject them into OoT N64 as-is - if anything, you'd need to convert them to ex. .obj, then import them into OoT using ex. SharpOcarina, which defeats the purpose.

That makes sense to me and confirms my suspicions I posted before.

omega59, I honestly don't even see the point of importing the models into OoT. That would just be one extra step. It would be easier to convert the map models found on OoT3D into a model format(like OBJ as xdaniel suggests) that can be viewed with a program like Blender. From there, you could at least be able to view all the map models and determine what is used and unused. However, the bigger problem is that I don't know how you would go about building a program to convert the map models from OoT3D and turn them into something that can be viewed on a computer. That is definitely an obstacle which might also be a bit of a gamble. Putting aside that you need to have patients and know how to build this program, you could end up putting in a ton of effort to build this program only to find the same unused rooms that are from OoT.

The easiest way to go about finding unused rooms that I can think of would be to swap around unknown/unidentified room files with a room file that is known, rebuild the ROM and run the game. Of course, since we don't have any 3DS emulators(or flash carts), it can't be done yet but it is far easier than building a specialized program for the purpose. Eventually an emulator will be released so while we don't know what other rooms could exist in OoT3D in the present, it is not an indefinite unknown.

The only other thing I have to say right now is that some unused rooms in OoT3D can be accessed using the Death Hole Wrong Warp glitch.

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omega59
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Posted on 06-13-13 04:41:37 AM (last edited by omega59 at 06-13-13 04:47:48 AM)

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The game seems to work literally exactly the same as the N64. I've taken deep gameplay studies, glitching, etc. Both react in the same ways to everything. OoT 3D is essentially OoT V1.3 with Dreamcast Graphics. What leads me to believe that they didn't fix their renderer from the N64 to 3DS is the fact that the system can take much more than what's used in the resources. This makes me believe that it's all of the same formats, under a 3DS executable. Oh, also the current point of my idea to import into the original OoT is that there's no 3DS emulators currently. And more proof to my claim that they're the same formats is that the same scenes are in play. If you don't know what a scene is, I'll sum it up. It's prebuilt map sections that will load when triggered, which is easy on the 3DS, since the game stutters when loading a scene on the 3DS. A useful exploit to see what prerendered scene files are what & where is to roll while against a wall, and go into first person view just as his feet hit the ground. Takes practice, but you'll look through walls on MM and OoT and the 3D version.

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Posted on 06-13-13 05:07:21 AM

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I recall Nintendo once saying they went as far as recreating the same bugs as the N64 version (except for those that do nothing interesting but crash the game and such), so don't assume that just because many of the bugs are the same it's based on the original engine.

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Posted on 06-13-13 05:13:03 AM

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>>ESTABLISHING LINK...DONE.    >>FETCHING POST DATA...DONE.    >>EXECUTING POSTDISP.BIN...

The model format being identical between OoT 3D and the original is pretty much impossible, as the model data on the N64 is just graphics commands specific to the N64. So unless Nintendo crammed the N64's chipset into the 3DS, or they use some kind of graphics Ucode emulator which wouldn't make any bloody sense, forget it.

And I know how the technical side of OoT N64 works, not from glitching but from hacking the game. I know how almost every area in the game is a scene (ex. excluding the grottos which are all grouped together), how every scene has at least one room, how all the interactive objects in the game are actors, how every scene and room can have alternate headers used for ex. separate area configurations for Child and Adult Link and for cutscenes, etc.

I don't know everything, but I know enough to be pretty much 100% sure that game data, like maps or actors models, is not interchangeable between the N64 and 3DS versions of OoT - the N64 game's data is too N64-specific.

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omega59
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Posted on 06-13-13 06:13:43 AM

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Well, the scenes may be the same format. It is worth a try, and it may be running a model interpreter. We don't even actually know what the engine is, but the 3DS's video chipset is from Nvidia, and it's highest resolution output is 720p, which the 3DS never uses. Seam walking still works in OoT 3D, but they tried hard blocking the seams off. In the Kokiri Forest, you can seam walk in the roots of houses, by backflipping above them. They specifically didn't want seam walking, and why would they go to the trouble of making a new engine? All of the required tools are provided, you just need to patch the glitches, add in 3DS features, and run a model interpretor inside of the executable file. The 3DS has good enough hardware to be capable of this, and much of the original level design is still there, under what they added for a more fitting look. For instance, the Zora's Domain cave still exists, the same as on the N64. There's too much of what they didn't want in, seam walking was a big no-no for them to keep.

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Posted on 06-13-13 11:28:17 AM

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i can guarantee that absolutely none of the model, scene, etc. data between the 3DS and N64 versions are interchangeable.

omega59
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Posted on 06-13-13 03:41:24 PM

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It's very likely, but not absolutely impossible, as it's just data interpreted though the engine. They probably did something cheap.

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