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05-03-22 06:30:25 AM
Jul - General Chat - 2013 Arctic sea ice extent New poll - New thread - New reply
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Will the September 2013 Arctic sea ice extent be lower or higher than 2012's record low?
Lower (less ice)
 
100.0%, 11 votes
Higher (more ice)   0.0%, 0 votes
Multi-voting is disabled. 11 users have voted.

LizardKing

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Posted on 09-06-12 01:17:55 PM (last edited by LizardKing at 09-06-12 01:22:06 PM) Link | Quote
Inspired by a question raised to the audience at a climate conference I just went to, I would like to ask you the same.

If you did not know this already, the sea ice extent in the Arctic is now at it's lowest value since satellites first began to monitor it, breaking the record low observed in 2007. Do you think that the 2013 ice extent will be lower or higher than that of 2012?

Link: U.S. National Snow & Ice Data Center : Arctic sea ice extent breaks 2007 record low

edit: Also, feel free to explain what you voted (but not necessarily why), and state your level of education.
Gabu

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Posted on 09-06-12 03:36:12 PM Link | Quote
Almost certain it's going to be less. Because just look at what a mild winter and terrible summer we've just had.

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Lyskar
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Posted on 09-07-12 12:03:28 AM Link | Quote
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Peardian

  
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Posted on 09-07-12 12:17:47 AM (last edited by Peardian at 09-07-12 02:42:51 PM) Link | Quote
Yeah, I doubt the trend is going to start reversing itself anytime soon, especially considering the upcoming winter is predicted to be warmer than usual.


Oh yeah, forgot my education level: BA with minor in computer science.

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LizardKing

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Posted on 09-07-12 06:31:33 AM Link | Quote
I am not asking you about the trend, though. That is most certainly going downwards (unfortunately). I am asking for just what you think about next year.
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Posted on 09-07-12 12:53:33 PM Link | Quote

With a warmer winter predicted for 2012-2013, I don't think that the ice will be able to build up as much as it needs, so I am voting that the ice extent will be lower. I hope I am wrong.

... not sure if you wanted this here, but since the comments on your link are closed... level of education is BA, working on M.Ed.

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Kazinsal

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Posted on 09-07-12 02:44:29 PM Link | Quote
Judging by this past year's more mild/warm weather, I'd say there's going to be less ice buildup this year.

Education level: High school intro geology. :specialed:

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LizardKing

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Posted on 09-10-12 11:23:18 AM (last edited by LizardKing at 09-10-12 11:25:08 AM) Link | Quote
Hello, and thanks for answering the poll.

The point of this questionnaire was that when scientists were asked this question, the majority (I don't remember the numbers now, but I think it was something around 70 - 80%) said that they thought the sea ice extent in 2013 would be higher. Which makes sense, because of 'natural variability'. In the non-scientist general public, however, the majority answered 'less sea ice'.

Photobucket

The figure above is courtesy of Årthun et. al. 2012; nsidc.org. It shows the modeled sea ice area in the Barents Sea, north of Norway. In the Barents Sea, the sea ice melts completely during summer (hence you see that the non-smoothed data (thin blue line) go down to about zero once a year), so this is not representative of the total sea ice in the Arctic. However, the trend is roughly the same.

The trend is indicated by the thick blue stipled line, and is really just the difference between the average value at the start of the time series, to the average value at the end. Note that in a climatological perspective, this a short time series.

The thick blue line is a smoothed version of the actual data, and the actual data is the thin blue line. What is interesting in this context are the peaks of the thin blue line (You can imagine a line connecting all those dots). Some years they are lower, some years they are higher. Though, during the period, the minima and maxima of the peaks goes down, according to the trend.

This can be transferred also to the minimum sea ice extent of the entire Arctic ocean. The trend will show that it decreases, though some years the minimum will be lower then other years, and some years will be higher. This is the annual variability.

Though this is a short timeseries, compare the peaks of the period 1980 - 1990 (period 1), and the peaks of 2000 - 2010 (period 2). The highest peak(s) in period 1 is (are) higher than the highest peaks in period 2, but the peaks aren't continuosly getting lower for each year. After a low peak, the next peak is usually higher, or the same, and sometimes lower.

The point is, the decrease in sea ice cover is not a constant. It is not continuosly getting lower for each year, but jumps around about a mean decreasing trend.

I hope I did not confuse you to much with this lengthy post! The idea was to test you guys a bit, and hopefully improve your understanding about climate variability! You can apply this to different parameters as well, such as temperature or precipitation (they also vary alot, of course, from location to location, and not just in time). I am not sure about wind, so don't ask me about that.

*edit: Kazinsal, I see that you are getting into Geology. That is cool. I would encourage you to continue down that path, as I have become increasingly interested in it as well. Just don't end up in the oil business.
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Posted on 09-10-12 11:38:31 AM Link | Quote
Well, I can't say I expected that kind of followup post! I was wondering about the education level thing, and now it makes sense.

That's an interesting pattern that the ice follows. With a pattern like that, I can imagine 2013's ice extent to possibly be higher. Judging by the pattern there, 2012 could be the sharp drop that seems to happen periodically. In that case, then we'd likely see 3-4 more years of higher ice levels before it drops down even further.

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Kazinsal

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Posted on 09-10-12 02:40:59 PM Link | Quote
Originally posted by LizardKing
*edit: Kazinsal, I see that you are getting into Geology. That is cool. I would encourage you to continue down that path, as I have become increasingly interested in it as well. Just don't end up in the oil business.

I actually took it last year to fill a class slot. Turned out to be rather fun, though this year I've got an AP physics class instead.

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Lyskar
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Posted on 09-10-12 09:39:41 PM Link | Quote
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Metal_Man88's Post
*Slaps forehead* I even know this sort of thing due to my statistics classes--that the overall decline may consist of a pattern like you noted. But, since this was a general forum, I wasn't expecting it to be based on that... heh.

(I'm a Computer Scientist.)

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