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05-04-22 04:39:41 PM
Jul - The Cutting Room Floor - The Legend of Zelda: Wind Waker Findings New poll - New thread - New reply
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Gamma
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Posted on 07-13-12 02:06:48 PM Link | Quote
I don't know how relavent it is to the wiki, but while looking through Glitterberri's translations of Hyrule Historia I came across this TWW concept art piece:

Right here.

The magic bean drawing in the top right corner is especially interesting to me. Why? In the game's code, there is a blank item entry for something called "Magic_Bean."

It's just something interesting I found.

Oh, also blanked out in the code are two sails- "zora_sail" and "tincle_sail." Apparently there was more than one sail type at one point.

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Posted on 07-14-12 04:48:23 AM Link | Quote
Am I glad they removed that. Seeing that concept art gives me nightmares of beans in trees, I don't know, it just seems *too* freaky for me.

Still, interesting find, and connection! But will haunt me.
Gamma
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Posted on 07-14-12 10:02:42 PM Link | Quote
Er... Ok. Sorry?

Also, even less relevant to the wiki than my last post, but...

Within JaiSeqs.arc, all of the dungeon BGM is called d_(dungeon name).bms.

However, the Tower of the Gods' sequence file is called Kaminoto.bms (Kami no To being "Tower of God" in Japanese).

The thing is that the Tower still has a sequence with the other dungeon names- d_amosu.bms. For some reason, this is Gohdan's battle theme instead of the dungeon's theme. My guess is that the original BGM (pre-TotG redesign) was in this file; when the TotG was redesigned, the new theme was moved to kaminoto.bms and d_amosu.bms was relegated to holding Gohdan's battle theme.

Also, the designers were kind of sloppy in designing the first room of the TotG. I'll show some pics later.
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Posted on 07-15-12 04:41:13 AM (last edited by GlitterBerri at 07-15-12 04:41:42 AM) Link | Quote
I'm going to guess that amosu = Armos, as that's their Japanese name. They're also referred to as amos in code/filenames, sometimes. ...If that makes any difference.

Tune in next week when we discuss Aeonic Butterfly's inexplicable phobia of pod vegetables!

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Posted on 07-15-12 05:33:41 AM Link | Quote
Originally posted by Gamma
Also, the designers were kind of sloppy in designing the first room of the TotG. I'll show some pics later.


I am very happy that they were sloppy! As a result of their sloppiness, they didn't clean unused parts of the game well and that is why we were able to find so much unused content. I look forward to seeing the pics!
Gamma
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Posted on 07-15-12 07:23:21 AM (last edited by Gamma at 07-16-12 05:26:08 PM) Link | Quote
Originally posted by GlitterBerri
I'm going to guess that amosu = Armos, as that's their Japanese name. They're also referred to as amos in code/filenames, sometimes. ...If that makes any difference.

Tune in next week when we discuss Aeonic Butterfly's inexplicable phobia of pod vegetables!


It could be, considering this is the first dungeon where the appear. What's weird is that the dungeons are called by primarily English names- d_forest, d_earth, d_wind, ect. Only Dragon Roost Cavern is Japanese- d_ryumt. Perhaps the fact that the names are in Japanese says they were finalized later in development? Or maybe the other way around.

Originally posted by Cuber456
I am very happy that they were sloppy! As a result of their sloppiness, they didn't clean unused parts of the game well and that is why we were able to find so much unused content. I look forward to seeing the pics!


Here's one of them. I've got a couple that I'll post an explain tomorrow:



This is the first room of the Tower, from a top-down perspective, with culling turned... on? Off? I'm not sure.

The thing about this is that the "floor" is just a plane with a section boxed in. And despite the fact that there's an object with the water that changes its height, the floor has its own collision, even for the parts that you can't get to. It might just be my opinion, but I think this is clear evidence that the designer was in a rush to complete the model- so much so that he didn't bother to delete the extra pieces of the plane.

However, that minimap of this room from the wiki seems to have the same shape water-wise, but not land-wise. Could the floor here be from the pre-redesign TotG, with the bulk of the geometry replaced? Perhaps the original map was as large as the base plane. The collision was probably added so that Link wouldn't fall into nothingness if the the water object failed to load during testing.

Hold up:



Compare that to:



The proportions of the beta minimap almost perfectly match those of the base plane in the image above. What could this mean?

OK, one more tonight.

These two pictures are from Room18 of the Tower of the Gods. Room18 is the outdoor area just before the boss room.





Now. Notice how the texture doesn't repeat properly just below the tower's top. Also notice how the shading is inconsistent between the tower and the top. This change happens where the wall meets the floor of the top of the tower where the bell is (part of it is modeled in this map). The shading seen here is also consistent on the Tower's ocean model, which is an object called X_tower.

Based on this evidence, my hypothesis is that the top of the tower shown in the model of Room18 originally looked like Room20, the beta bell tower. When they redesigned the tower, they went in and remodeled the top, cutting it off and copy-pasting the top from X_tower onto it. This created the discrepancies seen in these photos.

This would make sense when you take a look at this image:



This is a comparison of Room18, Room19 and Room20. Room19 fits almost perfectly in the doorway that normally leads to Gohdan's room, and it fits inside the tower as shown in Room18; so does Room20. The fact that all three rooms fit together so well and the fact that they are numbered consecutively heavily suggests that at one point you would have entered these rooms one after another, starting with Room18.

I think it's still up for debate as to what exactly Room19 was used for. It is big enough to be a boss room, in my opinion, but it was cut very early as there are virtually no objects in it (not even a spawn point for Link, which is why the map won't load normally). Whether Room18 would have been the room immediately after or immediately before the boss room is currently a mystery.


Was dumping textures recently, and I found this kind of creepy image:



This rough image of Jabun's eyes and nose is found in the textures for the model "gyoei," which apparently means "fish shadow." On the actual model, the eye texture is blurred by a blue effect- which makes the model kind of freaky-looking. There's another model, "new_gyoei," that doesn't have this eye texture.

What's interesting about this is that there is concept art that is this exact concept-

Click

Because of the camera angles in the cutscene, new_gyoei and its accompanying (very unrealistic) wiggling animation are barely seen. This texture indicates that there was something more like the concept are planned.
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Posted on 07-18-12 04:58:13 PM (last edited by Aeonic Butterfly at 07-18-12 05:04:47 PM) Link | Quote
Originally posted by GlitterBerri
I'm going to guess that amosu = Armos, as that's their Japanese name. They're also referred to as amos in code/filenames, sometimes. ...If that makes any difference.

Tune in next week when we discuss Aeonic Butterfly's inexplicable phobia of pod vegetables!


The green beans... they did horrible things to me... you have no idea... you ALL have no idea!



Just that image creeps me out, I don't know why XD Which is funny, considering my usual stance on legumes (peanuts and beans =3 Lovely food)

Back on topic...

That would actually be quite lazy to just do that, wouldn't it? I mean, the bell and tower top. Still, I guess they did do something similar with Super Mario Galaxy (With the Boo Mansion, stuck the top of the Hi-Res mesh ontop of the old Lo-Res mesh, to hide the old design), so it wouldn't be too far... still... can't they at least make sure the textures mesh seamlessly?
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Posted on 07-18-12 07:09:02 PM Link | Quote
Achievement unlocked used the word legumes in a post on a video game beta board.

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Cuber456

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Posted on 07-19-12 03:20:52 AM Link | Quote
Originally posted by Gamma


Oh, also blanked out in the code are two sails- "zora_sail" and "tincle_sail." Apparently there was more than one sail type at one point.




This is a very interesting piece of information to me. If these sails made it into the game then there would be a total of three sails that you could use. Now check out this folder root\res\Msg\itemicon\timg. Do you notice something? Although they all use the exact same graphics, there are three sail graphics (sail_00.bti, sail_01.bti, sail_02.bti). One of them is obviously used for the regular sail in the final game but the other two could very well be placeholder graphics for what would have been the "zora_sail" and "tincle_sail". What do you guys think?

Something else of interest is that there are two files of the exact same graphics for the power bracelets(gloves_00.bti, gloves_01.bti). Perhaps there were suppose to be two power bracelets like there was suppose to be three sails. Is there any evidence that there were suppose to be two power bracelets where you found the "zora_sail" and "tincle_sail"?

I will read your post you made about TotG but I will need to sit down for that one .
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Posted on 07-19-12 06:40:25 AM Link | Quote
I'm guessing the tincle is supposed to be Tingle, and I could see why there'd be a sail (maybe a reward? more rupees on the seas?). But I don't think there'd be a Tingle Bracelet... would there be? The Zora Sail might have been a faster upgrade, or maybe some other story-related item, maybe allowing you to access different areas that would've been blocked off.
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Posted on 07-23-12 09:13:34 AM Link | Quote
About old items, here's something relevant to the Water Boots:



In the test rooms "Amos_T" and "I_TestM" is the remains of the use of Water Boots. An item removed before the final version of The Wind Waker.

Deep in water, you can see there is a small incline to get out of the deep water without swimming.



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Posted on 07-24-12 01:43:08 AM Link | Quote
Originally posted by Dark Linkaël
About old items, here's something relevant to the Water Boots:



In the test rooms "Amos_T" and "I_TestM" is the remains of the use of Water Boots. An item removed before the final version of The Wind Waker.

Deep in water, you can see there is a small incline to get out of the deep water without swimming.




So are you saying that the function of the water boots were like the iron boots in other Zelda games where you sink underwater? I guess its possible but I am slightly skeptical. Why would the programmers create the Water Boots for this when its abilities are just an extension of what the Iron Boots can do in other games? Why not just program the Iron Boots to have these abilities to begin with instead of having two separate boots? Its strange...

Besides making Link hop, I've heard that these boots don't appear to function in-game anymore. Is this true? I haven't tried using the item myself.
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Posted on 07-25-12 02:22:35 AM Link | Quote
Ok, so here is the scoop. I don't know how many people know but I am attempting to fully restore the model for A_R00. If you don't know what A_R00 is, it is the forest from the SpaceWorld demo:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQ7riCXrDxY

A program has come out recently that will allow me use custom textures and, hence, allow me to restore the textures to the room. I am still in the beginning stages of this project but things are slowly progressing. Since I am going through the effort of restoring the room's textures, why not restore objects(trees, grass, moblins...) to the room as well? Why not make this a full restoration project?

Here is the question. Does anyone know how to hack objects into a stage? I know that it would involve hacking the DZR file for a room but beyond that, I have no idea how to do this. Wind Viewer would be a valuable tool to aid us in this. If someone could, at the very least, give me a pointer on how to hack objects into maps, it would help very much.
Gamma
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Posted on 07-25-12 10:55:24 AM Link | Quote
I can help with adding actors, but my computer isn't useable right now.

Also, what is this program? Is it a new version of the converter used to make the first model? We might not be able to have custom collision yet, but custom maps would be cool. Can you provide a link to the program?
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Posted on 07-25-12 01:31:47 PM (last edited by Dark Linkaël at 07-25-12 01:35:00 PM) Link | Quote
The Water Boots was probably the old version of Iron Boots and had the same utility as that of Ocarina of Time. However, we will never know... Except with a very old prototype of the game.

It will be very difficult or impossible to reconstruct "A_R00" as there is a little over 10 years, but you can do your best on several things. Put textures will already be a very good thing!

I do not know myself completely in the files "DZR", but I will like to know more about the functioning of most files in a room and setting in "Stage.arc".

Otherwise, I am making changes in "TF_03DL". It is now possible to visit all the rooms without grids outside the doors. I could see that the Armos Knight wakes up after defeating the four Moblins in other rooms. The last room contains a chest with 100 rupees. However, I can not find a way to open the gates using the platform with eyes.

I also made a modification to the room "Msmoke". The principal cause of the blockage comes from the door using an older method obselete in the final version of the game. It now uses the current method and the door is present, but it does not open and I do not know why... A detail, the room is only accessible with the Debug Menu and not with codes.

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Posted on 07-25-12 09:27:38 PM Link | Quote
Gamma:

For now, I will leave adding actors/objects to you since this re-texturing is already a big project. At the very least, try to figure out how to hack them into a room. I believe that we can use Wind Viewer to change an actors position once it is hacked in. I would say start by adding trees since you have the stumps to work with in the collision model and you can tell where they go. I would use the model alwd.bdl in the Lwood folder for trees because they look perfect for it.

This new converter is similar to the older one. The difference is that this new converter converts an OBJ model to a BDL model vs a 3DS model to a BDL model. The new converter also allows custom textures which is the big plus. One downside with the converter though is that the BDL models are NOT viewable in bmdview2 or Wind Viewer. This will make matching up collision and the new BDL model more difficult to line up but it isn't impossible. They can be viewed in game of course.

The program is a slight pain to setup and use but you can find it here in of the posts for this thread-> http://www.supermariogalaxy2-5.com/index.cgi?board=prgrming&action=display&thread=991&page=17
I think you have to be logged in to download it though but whatever.

Dark Linkaël:

To be honest, I think I would love to see a prototype of this game more than a prototype of OoT. I love this game more than OoT. I also have the tools(GCrebuilder, bmdview2, Wind Viewer ) and knowledge to start ripping into such a prototype. Isn't the only tool we have that could rip into a prototype of OoT utility of time? Of course, that is not to say I wouldn't be happy if a prototype of OoT got released...

So you are looking into Stage.arc files. Let me know what the purpose of these arc files are because I don't understand what they are for. To me, it seems that important models, collisions and actors are stored in the Room.arc files.
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Posted on 07-26-12 10:44:54 AM Link | Quote
Thanks for the link.

Stage.arc. It has a lot of important stuff in it. Here's a quick list of what's in it:

Skybox models (found in the bdl folder)

Mini-Maps (found in the dat folder)

Cloud textures (cound in the tex folder, I think)

Dungeon-unique doors (dungeons only, found in another bdl folder, possible one called bdlm)

DZS files- DZS files are set up just like DZRs. DZSs contain more environment-related info, like lighting, fog and item usage. Events from Event_List.dat (see below) are also stored here, as are treasure chests. There's more to it, but that's the gist. (found in the dzs folder)

Event_List.dat- This is an immensely important file. It contains the "events" that can occur within in the room. Events are basically mini-cutscenes that actors or event Tags (things called TagEv or Tagmsg in the SCOB or SCOx sections of DZR files) can call; I'm not sure how actors do it, but I know that tags use the index number of the event as identified in the DZS. (found in the dat folder)

I would just suggest taking the Stage.arc from the Forbidden Woods, but only because it's darker and foggier. Be aware that particle effects (the ash in Dragon Roost, the forest particles in Forest Haven, ect) are actually objects in the DZR. It'll be one of the first ones I place when I start editing a DZR.


Oh! Another note. Remember how in the IGN preview videos, the doors in Forsaken Fortress move up instead acting like the final doors do? These doors still exist in the game. I don't remember where, and I don't have access to my computer ATM, but I'm 75% sure that the door is stored in the Stage.arc of the beta Tingle room.
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Posted on 07-26-12 04:36:29 PM (last edited by Dark Linkaël at 07-26-12 05:59:40 PM) Link | Quote
Very very interesting... We should get to know completely the file "Stage.arc". By doing this, it will be possible to resolve many problems as some rooms are impossible to load. Then it would be possible to make rooms by either yourself!

Otherwise, I spent the entire afternoon to restore "E3ROOP". I inserted some things from stage.dzs of "Ebesso" in that of "E3ROOP". The room works pretty well, but the problem is that there is a scene that keeps repeating itself in leaving each time the screen. I think it comes from "sea" that is present in stage.dzs of "E3ROOP". It is also used in "sea_E" and "sea_T" and it feels the same effects. The room "E3ROOP" is very complicated to restore because of programmers who have made mistakes over...

There is yet to be discovered in this Zelda and we must continue to move forward in our research!

E3ROOP in 2002...

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Posted on 07-28-12 11:47:09 AM Link | Quote
You had to see, the Map Select does not contain all the unused rooms of the game. Well today I managed to add all the rooms in the Map Select without replacement. The work was a bit delicate, but I finally got what I wanted for several months! Here are the results:



The method is simple, except that you know and not to be mistaken. It uses the same thing as "stage.dzs" for example.

New version "Menu1.dat"

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Posted on 07-28-12 05:06:42 PM Link | Quote
Originally posted by Dark Linkaël
You had to see, the Map Select does not contain all the unused rooms of the game. Well today I managed to add all the rooms in the Map Select without replacement. The work was a bit delicate, but I finally got what I wanted for several months! Here are the results:



The method is simple, except that you know and not to be mistaken. It uses the same thing as "stage.dzs" for example.

New version "Menu1.dat"


A very nice hack! I was able to import your new menu file and it seems to be working. Nice to be able to access all maps from the debug menu instead of trying to use AR codes.

http://www.zeldawiki.org/Hacks_in_The_Legend_of_Zelda:_The_Wind_Waker#Advanced_Codes

Using AR codes to get to rooms is such a messy way to access rooms...
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