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05-04-22 12:43:07 AM
Jul - The Cutting Room Floor - The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword New poll - New thread - New reply
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GlitterBerri

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Posted on 03-08-12 05:16:42 AM (last edited by GlitterBerri at 03-08-12 02:38 AM) Link | Quote
Yay, official Skyward Sword thread. I haven't yet finished this game, so warning me before you spoil something would be appreciated. Or I can just avoid checking this post...

There are remains of a map select in the demo version of Skyward Sword. Pretty much all of the unused maps appear to be deleted, but at least we have evidence that they once existed.

Menu.dat (courtesy of Kargaroc): http://dl.dropbox.com/u/16672629/menu.7z
Attempt at formatting menu.dat: http://pastebin.ca/2126062
Translation (in progress): http://pastebin.ca/2126064

Since these are Pastebin files, everyone can edit them. Yay! If you spot mistakes in the formatting, please fix 'em, and if you want to help translate, that would be nice too. Find and replace searches are very useful for this, but if you're replacing something, put a space before and after it. For example, replace "テスト" with " Test ", so we don't end up having the English translation looking like "VolcanoTest".
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Posted on 03-08-12 09:21:24 AM (last edited by Dark Linkaël at 03-08-12 06:38 AM) Link | Quote
It is easier to read here than Twilight Princess.

For those who want to know what it looks like the debug menu (map select) Skyward Sword, watch this video:

The Legend of Zelda Skyward Sword - Intro, File Selection Screen, and Gameplay

Otherwise, I also specifies that a file exsite "menu1.dat" in game "Navi Trackers" (Four Swords Adventures). However, I have a very bad copy of the iso of the game and I can not see anything. More than half of the game files are completely reduced to "00" everywhere.

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Posted on 03-08-12 10:46:09 AM Link | Quote
I tried to look into SS a little bit ago, but I got frustrated by the fact the model viewer I was trying to use often couldn't display textures. I'm willing to give it another shot, however, and I'm creating a new dump of the game as we speak.
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Posted on 03-08-12 10:59:46 AM Link | Quote
There is "DEMO" in the list, this is the only room still present in the game... Thank you Nintendo... It does not motivate me at all to look in very recent games, I know the end result. I prefer to stay on The Wind Waker, I would not be disappointed in the least. This is the last Zelda in 3D where you can see wonders. As for Ocarina of Time and Majora's Mask, they probably have no more mysteries. Finally, I have only one word to say: "Prototype"

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Posted on 06-06-12 01:03:45 PM Link | Quote
I have a very great preference for a prototype of Zelda 64 and The Wind Waker, but also by the older Zelda (NES, SNES or GB).

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Posted on 06-08-12 02:59:00 AM Link | Quote
Rabbi, you actually have a Zelda prototype? If that is true then I have few questions. First off, what is the prototype? Second, where do you actually go to get prototype games? Was it a private deal or did you get it off ebay and you just have eagle eyes?

Dark Linkaël, like I said before, I think our best bet of getting a prototype version of WW would be if we got an E3 version. If the final retail version is any indication of unused content, the E3 version probably has some interesting tid bits in it. What I find slightly weird is the fact that an E3 version of TP and SS somehow made its way to the web but not for WW. If only an E3 version of WW would pop up on ebay...
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Posted on 06-10-12 09:31:49 PM (last edited by Aeonic Butterfly at 06-10-12 09:32:32 PM) Link | Quote
Originally posted by Cuber456
Rabbi, you actually have a Zelda prototype? If that is true then I have few questions. First off, what is the prototype? Second, where do you actually go to get prototype games? Was it a private deal or did you get it off ebay and you just have eagle eyes?

Dark Linkaël, like I said before, I think our best bet of getting a prototype version of WW would be if we got an E3 version. If the final retail version is any indication of unused content, the E3 version probably has some interesting tid bits in it. What I find slightly weird is the fact that an E3 version of TP and SS somehow made its way to the web but not for WW. If only an E3 version of WW would pop up on ebay...


I wonder how all these tradeshow games keep walking away, to be honest. Look at Wai's Sonic 2 beta, which looks to have been a cart that was taken from a show.

Rabbi is a troll account. I think he's banned now. I think he's a very sour, ex-scene member. ^^;
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Posted on 06-11-12 12:48:12 AM Link | Quote
Originally posted by Aeonic Butterfly
I wonder how all these tradeshow games keep walking away, to be honest. Look at Wai's Sonic 2 beta, which looks to have been a cart that was taken from a show.

Rabbi is a troll account. I think he's banned now. I think he's a very sour, ex-scene member. ^^;


I have wondered about that as well. I would think that stealing a prototype from any show or demonstrations would be too difficult though. Wouldn't the devs of the prototype be keeping a close eye on it at a show? I feel that it would be easier as a developer to leak such prototypes since they are constantly around them. What do I know though.......



Trolls will be trolls.
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Posted on 06-11-12 10:42:23 AM Link | Quote
Evidently it's easier to steal a prototype when it comes directly from an employee of Nintendo. This is the case of three prototypes of Zelda. Then the versions that are shown during E3 or other, they are much less interesting than those being currently work. Zelda 64 is obligatorily a test version. Happily!

However, a demo of TWW from E3 2002, it can not be refused under certain conditions. Nintendo is not actually a horrible cleaning almost total removal of all rooms that are still under construction at this time (See E3 2006 demo of TP). I note that the demo has been 10 years since a few days.

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Posted on 06-11-12 07:46:42 PM Link | Quote
Originally posted by Dark Linkaël
Evidently it's easier to steal a prototype when it comes directly from an employee of Nintendo. This is the case of three prototypes of Zelda. Then the versions that are shown during E3 or other, they are much less interesting than those being currently work. Zelda 64 is obligatorily a test version. Happily!

However, a demo of TWW from E3 2002, it can not be refused under certain conditions. Nintendo is not actually a horrible cleaning almost total removal of all rooms that are still under construction at this time (See E3 2006 demo of TP). I note that the demo has been 10 years since a few days.


I feel that Nintendo getting stricter with cleaning their games is only a recent thing though. Only from TP and onward do we see that they remove most of the unused rooms. Before TP there seems to be less of an attempt at doing this, with Wind Waker especially. We see that with Wind Waker, all retail versions(to my knowledge) have the same unused rooms in them and all have the same debug menu. When we check the demo version of the game on the Collector's Edition that was released months later after the retail version, they removed some of the unused rooms but not all of them(I remember you confirming this). If this is any indication, an E3 version is likely to have a bunch of interesting stuff on it unlike the E3 versions of TP and SS.

At this point, I think the real question is how long will it be before a prototype does get released? While it would be great to get a prototype, I'm not going to hold my breath on it.
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Posted on 06-11-12 09:51:40 PM Link | Quote
I wouldn't say they're getting "stricter", but better at keeping track which files are unused and such. Plus, given the amount of content in the games, they probably needed to clear up as much space as they could. One test room can mean 1 MB or more of data.

As an example, look at Super Mario Sunshine and Super Mario Galaxy. There were 20 debug rooms in SMS, and all of them were removed, but one was added back in for the US release to test localization. Meanwhile, SMG has so much unused content that it boggles the mind. They were in a bit of a rush, and had plenty of space, so the files are very messy. And yet, SMG2 has almost nothing unused.

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Posted on 06-11-12 11:52:42 PM Link | Quote
Originally posted by Peardian
I wouldn't say they're getting "stricter", but better at keeping track which files are unused and such. Plus, given the amount of content in the games, they probably needed to clear up as much space as they could. One test room can mean 1 MB or more of data.

As an example, look at Super Mario Sunshine and Super Mario Galaxy. There were 20 debug rooms in SMS, and all of them were removed, but one was added back in for the US release to test localization. Meanwhile, SMG has so much unused content that it boggles the mind. They were in a bit of a rush, and had plenty of space, so the files are very messy. And yet, SMG2 has almost nothing unused.


Well with those examples, I guess you are right. I actually haven't looked at the SMS or SMG pages because I haven't played those games yet. I don't like looking at what isn't in a game when I haven't played it and plan to. I have played SMG2 and have seen its page and it has a lot less stuff than say SMW. Actually, now that I really think about it, what you said makes perfect sense. SMW, WW and SMG were all rushed for release. On the other hand, MM, TP, SS and SMG2 weren't rushed. I think TP and SS were developed for 5 years and they indeed took their time with them. TP and SS are also lacking in unused content.
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Posted on 06-12-12 08:38:18 AM (last edited by Rena at 06-12-12 08:39:01 AM) Link | Quote
Post #4824 · Tue 120612 043818
Weren't there some games (SMG?) that had debugging symbol files left on the discs? I imagine once they discovered that, they developed some system (maybe even just checking by hand) to remove unused files, lest those filthy hackers find more useful nuggets like that. I doubt disc space is much of an issue. As long as it fits on one disc, making it smaller doesn't really make any difference. (If anything, they'd want to make it larger... at least that makes piracy a little more difficult.)

I have a feeling that they're just doing this for recent Mario and Zelda titles and won't bother to keep it up for long... and while they may be removing unused files, they probably aren't removing unused content within used files, such as debugging functions...

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Posted on 06-12-12 09:11:46 AM Link | Quote
It will become increasingly rare to find unused stuff in games to come. The first and main reason is probably because of hackers. At the time of the first games in 2D, there was not much to see. Just look at Super Mario Bros., The Legend of Zelda and Metroid on the NES, there was almost nothing to discover. It was impossible to waste with free space of the game, but over time the programmers are left to go, especially when 3D games arrived.

Skyward Sword is a poverty to search for possible hidden wonders... Very away from The Wind Waker and 56 unused areas!

Otherwise, the demo of of TWW does not contain all these rooms:

Hyroom Hyrule I_TestM I_TestR ITest61 ITest62 ITest63 K_Test2 K_Test3 K_Test4 K_Test5 K_Test6 K_Test8 K_Test9 K_TestA K_TestB K_TestC K_TestD K_TestE KATA_HB KATA_RM Kazan Kaze KazeB KazeMB Kenroom M_Dai M_DaiB M_DaiMB Mukao Siren SirenB SirenMB TEST TF_01 TF_02 TF_05 TF_07 VrTest XBoss0 XBoss1 XBoss2 XBoss3

It will dig deep into the next games for Nintendo and not exceptional results...

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Posted on 06-12-12 01:12:13 PM Link | Quote
Originally posted by Rena
Weren't there some games (SMG?) that had debugging symbol files left on the discs? I imagine once they discovered that, they developed some system (maybe even just checking by hand) to remove unused files, lest those filthy hackers find more useful nuggets like that. I doubt disc space is much of an issue. As long as it fits on one disc, making it smaller doesn't really make any difference. (If anything, they'd want to make it larger... at least that makes piracy a little more difficult.)

Quite a few games, mainly on the GC. Did a quick search of what I've got in my ISOs folder... Wind Waker, Twilight Princess, Sunshine, Double Dash (iirc there were issues with one or both of the last two - they were for debug binaries and not the final game), Animal Crossing GC (all versions)...

One Wii game (Prince of Persia something-or-other) has the game binary on-disc as an .elf file, including all symbols. Earlier versions of the Wii System Menu included a .sel file (exports for linking shared objects) with every single function, but Nintendo pared it down to a small amount of symbols in later versions.

Many Wii games include references to the files - for example, every game related to NSMBW (AC: City Folk, Skyward Sword) includes code that loads .map files, but it's not used. Galaxy 1 and 2 include empty "AllTargetAddressMap" folders.

I'm sure there's more (especially on the GC) but these are just what I know of.

Originally posted by Rena
I have a feeling that they're just doing this for recent Mario and Zelda titles and won't bother to keep it up for long... and while they may be removing unused files, they probably aren't removing unused content within used files, such as debugging functions...
I heard a while ago that Nintendo had changed their Lot Check rules to force developers to remove things like that - but it obviously isn't working too well, given that the aforementioned PoP game was sold with an .elf file on the disc. It made it quite easy for nefarious types to disable the anti piracy, given that it included symbol names for every single bit of it

Sadly, debug code isn't that common any more - the linker automatically strips dead code and in most cases it's disabled on compilation (using the preprocessor, I'm guessing). The Zelda games are the only exceptions that come to mind.

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Posted on 06-12-12 05:09:20 PM Link | Quote
Originally posted by Treeki
Originally posted by Rena
Weren't there some games (SMG?) that had debugging symbol files left on the discs? I imagine once they discovered that, they developed some system (maybe even just checking by hand) to remove unused files, lest those filthy hackers find more useful nuggets like that. I doubt disc space is much of an issue. As long as it fits on one disc, making it smaller doesn't really make any difference. (If anything, they'd want to make it larger... at least that makes piracy a little more difficult.)

Quite a few games, mainly on the GC. Did a quick search of what I've got in my ISOs folder... Wind Waker, Twilight Princess, Sunshine, Double Dash (iirc there were issues with one or both of the last two - they were for debug binaries and not the final game), Animal Crossing GC (all versions)...


Do you mean that the final version of Super Mario Sunshine and Double Dash are actually still debug versions?

Originally posted by Treeki
One Wii game (Prince of Persia something-or-other) has the game binary on-disc as an .elf file, including all symbols. Earlier versions of the Wii System Menu included a .sel file (exports for linking shared objects) with every single function, but Nintendo pared it down to a small amount of symbols in later versions.


What are these symbols you speak of, out of curiosity? I'm not sure I quite understand.

Originally posted by Dark Linkaël
Just look at Super Mario Bros., The Legend of Zelda and Metroid on the NES, there was almost nothing to discover. It was impossible to waste with free space of the game, but over time the programmers are left to go, especially when 3D games arrived.


Somewhat related, I've just been translating an article that says the following:


Nintendo's original goal in developing the Disk System was to offer players casual games at low prices. However, once software development began, the staff realized how much more memory capacity they had to work with compared to the MASK ROMs of the time.

The first title compatible with the Disk System was the pinoeering Famicom role-playing game known as The Legend of Zelda. (Fig. 3) Despite its status as the first game released on the Disk System, The Legend of Zelda turned out to be an epic title that made full use of the 256 kB of available memory. Whatever had become of Uemura's desire to offer players casual games...?

Once the first 256 kB game had been developed, it was hard to go back. The golden age of role-playing games such as Dragon Quest that followed shortly afterward also contributed to the acceleration of game software memory expansion.
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Posted on 06-12-12 05:57:39 PM (last edited by Aeonic Butterfly at 06-12-12 05:59:17 PM) Link | Quote
Originally posted by Peardian
I wouldn't say they're getting "stricter", but better at keeping track which files are unused and such. Plus, given the amount of content in the games, they probably needed to clear up as much space as they could. One test room can mean 1 MB or more of data.

As an example, look at Super Mario Sunshine and Super Mario Galaxy. There were 20 debug rooms in SMS, and all of them were removed, but one was added back in for the US release to test localization. Meanwhile, SMG has so much unused content that it boggles the mind. They were in a bit of a rush, and had plenty of space, so the files are very messy. And yet, SMG2 has almost nothing unused.


It's hard to believe Super Mario Galaxy and Twilight Princess are from the same company and released around the same time, seriously. I mean, Twilight Princess is really bare, where Super Mario Galaxy? Holy hell.

Zelda 64 and MM had enough content to keep ZSO and ZC occupied for ages. The Sonic series has enough betas wandering about to keep Retro busy for ages. Why can't we find a TP build or even a giant, Nintendo dump like the Hidden Palace dump of yore? I'd kill someone for an early Zelda 64 cart, or MM!

Originally posted by GlitterBerri
What are these symbols you speak of, out of curiosity? I'm not sure I quite understand.


As for debugging symbols, here's a Wiki link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debug_symbol

Basically, their inclusion of a symbols file is like having a decryption key for, say, the Voynich Manuscript.
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Posted on 06-12-12 06:26:38 PM Link | Quote
Originally posted by Aeonic Butterfly
Zelda 64 and MM had enough content to keep ZSO and ZC occupied for ages. The Sonic series has enough betas wandering about to keep Retro busy for ages. Why can't we find a TP build or even a giant, Nintendo dump like the Hidden Palace dump of yore? I'd kill someone for an early Zelda 64 cart, or MM!

And I'd kill someone for an early NES MegaMan prototype, and the only thing that I got, are screenies from what seems to be the RockMan 4 prototype...
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Posted on 06-13-12 01:06:29 AM Link | Quote
Originally posted by GlitterBerri
Do you mean that the final version of Super Mario Sunshine and Double Dash are actually still debug versions?
Not quite. If my memory serves me right, the demo version of Sunshine has a .map file, but the retail version doesn't. And Double Dash has one, but it contains info for the debug binary (which we don't have).

Originally posted by GlitterBerri
What are these symbols you speak of, out of curiosity? I'm not sure I quite understand.
OK, how do I explain this... Each symbol is a pair containing a name (of a function or variable or ...) and an address within the game binary. (It can be more complex than that, but that's not necessary or relevant here). For example, in NSMB Wii, the OSReport function is located at 0x8015F870.

The .map file is simply a list generated by the linker (a piece of software which puts together bits of compiled code into one final binary and links everything together so it works, hence the name) of what things are where within the binary.

So what are these useful for?

1. Debugging: If the game crashes while processing the code at 0x80295AE4, it can search the map file to see what's there. "Oh, the symbol MarioJump points to 0x80295AD0, and the next one is at 0x80296008, so this error must have occurred within the MarioJump function." This is the reason why .map files are in Nintendo's games. In Zelda WW/TP, the code to read them is still there, and it'll pull up a pretty debug log if the game crashes! This saves a tremendous amount of debugging time, since the developer can just read the log and it'll tell him what code the crash occurred in.

2. Reverse-engineering: When the game is compiled, most useful info like function/variable names are stripped out. (They're not needed to execute the code, and would simply waste memory and space if left in.) This makes reversing a pain because we have to figure out what every bit of code does from the ground up... involving a lot of guessing and so on.

The following code is easy to understand, right? This might be a method on the Mario object.

void Mario::StartJumping() {

ySpeed = -5;
isJumping = true;
}


But when it's compiled, this is what it might look like: (Not exactly like this, because it'd be in assembly - but that'd be much harder to read and would just distract from the purpose of this)

void sub_80045920(void *unknownPointer) {

unknownPointer->numberAtOffset16 = -5;
unknownPointer->numberAtOffset68 = 1;
}


Not quite as easy to understand... it could be practically anything. If I was reverse-engineering this code, and I had symbols for it, I could simply look up 80045920 in the map file and see that it was actually Mario::StartJumping. This would make it fairly straightforward to see that the first assignment was probably setting a Y velocity, and the second one had to be related to jumping somehow.


This was a bit long winded but I hope it made sense

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Posted on 06-13-12 01:35:29 AM Link | Quote
Originally posted by Treeki
Not quite. If my memory serves me right, the demo version of Sunshine has a .map file, but the retail version doesn't. And Double Dash has one, but it contains info for the debug binary (which we don't have).

Actually, they all have a .map file. The difference is the demo has TWO of them for some reason.

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