Jul -- Gaming: Is DLC a scam?

Bagel

Giant Red Paratroopa
without music life would Bb
Level: 75

Posts: 1101/1446
EXP: 3802207
For next: 24697

Since: 03-30-09

Pronouns: he/him
From: bear

Since last post: 190 days
Last activity: 6 days

Posted on 03-27-12 01:53:51 PM

Link | Quote

Actually, it depends on the publisher's mindset. Some of them know their audience, and some just want to exploit that audience.

In Bethesda's case they genuinely want to give you some more content to add to your game and at least try to make it worth the price. A great example is Fallout: New Vegas, where each $10 DLC added at least 5-10 hours to the (already humongous) game, as well as weapons and armor and perks. Not to mention that Obsidian's writing is fantastic and the extra stories are a blast to play through. DLC done right, basically. Released in installments after the base game has already been out for some time, isn't just an "unlockable" that already exists in the base game's files, and each is big enough to merit its pricing. (Sure, Fallout 3's DLCs weren't anywhere near as good but at least Bethesda tried!)

Then there's a publisher like EA. Look at the Sims 3; the base game has very little to do. A lot of content was cut and made into 419 bazillion different DLC packs, most of them useless reskins of things already in the base game instead of adding new functionality or much variety. This is the kind of bad DLC that gets notoriety and makes it all look like a bad thing. Mass Effect 3's day-one DLC, Capcom's pay-for-stuff-already-on-the-disc, ... yeah. Gives you a pretty good impression of where the publisher's motivations are.

____________________

congratulations on finding this title text

bandcamp
google

twitters:
pri
pub

Girlydragon
3030

Possibly neither Girly nor Dragon.
Level: 105

Posts: 2430/3030
EXP: 12256162
For next: 6098

Since: 07-21-07

From: Sweden

Since last post: 282 days
Last activity: 9 hours

Posted on 03-27-12 02:03:48 PM

Link | Quote

I wouldn't really call it a scam even in the case of day-one DLC or things that are already on the disc, it's rude in a way and I don't like it, but not sure I'd label it a scam.

That being said, I think Valve has the absolute best policy on DLC, everything directly affecting gameplay is free, and things you have to pay for are only cosmetic, possible to get by playing, or both.

If you really are gonna charge for things that directly affect gameplay, at least make sure it's actually made and developed after the release.

____________________

SamEarl13

Nipper Plant
Trying (and failing) to learn Lua.
Level: 43

Posts: 97/419
EXP: 523835
For next: 41211

Since: 02-14-12

Since last post: 4.1 years
Last activity: 17 days

Posted on 03-27-12 02:05:42 PM

Link | Quote

Originally posted by Bagel
Actually, it depends on the publisher's mindset. Some of them know their audience, and some just want to exploit that audience.

In Bethesda's case they genuinely want to give you some more content to add to your game and at least try to make it worth the price. A great example is Fallout: New Vegas, where each $10 DLC added at least 5-10 hours to the (already humongous) game, as well as weapons and armor and perks. Not to mention that Obsidian's writing is fantastic and the extra stories are a blast to play through. DLC done right, basically. Released in installments after the base game has already been out for some time, isn't just an "unlockable" that already exists in the base game's files, and each is big enough to merit its pricing. (Sure, Fallout 3's DLCs weren't anywhere near as good but at least Bethesda tried!)

Then there's a publisher like EA. Look at the Sims 3; the base game has very little to do. A lot of content was cut and made into 419 bazillion different DLC packs, most of them useless reskins of things already in the base game instead of adding new functionality or much variety. This is the kind of bad DLC that gets notoriety and makes it all look like a bad thing. Mass Effect 3's day-one DLC, Capcom's pay-for-stuff-already-on-the-disc, ... yeah. Gives you a pretty good impression of where the publisher's motivations are.

As you proved though only some companies are releasing good DLC, I've always wanted to play Fallout as i've heard it is Good as well as most things by Bethesda. DLC to me should be things that stand out as new, not something kept back or already there. Unless someone else comes up with another good game/company Bethesda may be the only exception.

____________________

I don't like the new pokemon by the way. my profile pic is something i edited when i was bored.

Nicole

she's more meow now than man, twisted and evil

Disk-kun
Level: 146

Posts: 5884/6469
EXP: 38284799
For next: 228495

Since: 07-07-07

Pronouns: she/her
From: Boston, MA

Since last post: 78 days
Last activity: 1 day

Posted on 03-27-12 02:13:21 PM

Link | Quote

Originally posted by Girlydragon
If you really are gonna charge for things that directly affect gameplay, at least make sure it's actually made and developed after the release.

I think this is kind of an interesting argument actually; I mean, thinking about it from a certain perspective you don't actually know whether a DLC was developed before or after release (well, if it's on the disk that's a good sign), and when it was developed or where it is in a sense completely unrelated to whether it's a worthwhile upgrade or not, isn't it? But there definitely is a sense of "fairness".

____________________

Girlydragon
3030

Possibly neither Girly nor Dragon.
Level: 105

Posts: 2431/3030
EXP: 12256162
For next: 6098

Since: 07-21-07

From: Sweden

Since last post: 282 days
Last activity: 9 hours

Posted on 03-27-12 02:20:07 PM

Link | Quote

Well, the least they can do is at least make it seem that it is developed afterwards.

Not having it on the disc is a good start.

And besides, this is mostly a moral thing in the end, and even if I'm tricked to believing that it's developed afterwards, then at least I will believe so.

If you get my point.

Being more transparent about the development could also help to show that it's truly made after release.

____________________

DigitalBasic
Pancakes!
Level: 174

Posts: 8711/9712
EXP: 70450102
For next: 447765

Since: 07-03-07

Pronouns: they/them

Since last post: 75 days
Last activity: 3 days

Posted on 03-27-12 05:06:30 PM

Link | Quote

Originally posted by Girlydragon
I wouldn't really call it a scam even in the case of day-one DLC or things that are already on the disc, it's rude in a way and I don't like it, but not sure I'd label it a scam.

If you really are gonna charge for things that directly affect gameplay, at least make sure it's actually made and developed after the release.

Regarding the two things here: if it is developed before release, it should be available to everyone and not sold as day 1 DLC. Pre-order bonuses of DLC are also quite dumb unless it promises DLC that will come out sometime AFTER launch. Cosmetic items as pre-order bonuses that turn DLC later are absolutely fine as the art team is usually sitting around and doing nothing, so that is a good way to make that kind of stuff.

Day 1 DLC that will affect gameplay is atrocious in select cases. In single player games, a new weapon or such that will change the way you play slightly is absolutely fine... in a pre-order bonus, not strictly day 1 DLC. In multiplayer, everything should be available to everyone, and nobody should be able to "pay to win."

There are cases of both good DLC and bad DLC. Examples:

Good DLC:
-Railworks 2012 -- Each DLC is not mandatory, and the developers know it is a very niche game. You don't buy all the DLC for this game unless you like all sorts of trains. When this game goes on sale, the base game AND the Trains vs Zombies DLC go on sale, so they do know that typical gamers will pass buying every other DLC.
-Dungeon Defenders -- Some extra missions cost money as DLC, but most content is 100% free unless you don't own the game when the DLC is released. This applies mostly to holiday DLC, and this is a good model considering it is basically an MMO you don't pay monthly for. It is also cheap to begin with.
-Skullgirls -- The game isn't out yet and they promise DLC, but that is because making a character for the team actually does take a long time (1-2 months a character possibly?) and the first two DLC characters confirmed aren't even going to be included in the initial release in any form (unless they surprise us with them being unlockables instead). This is good for a fighting game.

Bad DLC:
-Mass Effect 3 -- You DO NOT release STORY IMPORTANT DLC on day 1. This was also created BEFORE release, with some lines from it leaked since July. Absolutely abysmal.
-Street Figher x Tekken -- 12 fully functioning characters available on the disc and already accessible by ways of glitches and copying some character data to a USB to access them. These are hidden characters that will be DLC when the Vita version comes out so that the Vita version makes them exclusive. Costumes are also on the disc, but Capcom will probably only release DLC for each costume change 2 characters at a time instead of a whole bundle. In fighting games, horrible as you basically lock half of the game away and give certain players that pay for more an advantage in tourneys.
-Dead Space series (or just one of the games, not sure) -- The DLC adds upgrades and, while wasn't developed as day 1 DLC, the DLC is impossible to disable and completely breaks the game in your favor, making you overpowered from start to finish. Bad, bad, bad.

There are more examples of both, but these should suffice for now.

____________________

SamEarl13

Nipper Plant
Trying (and failing) to learn Lua.
Level: 43

Posts: 99/419
EXP: 523835
For next: 41211

Since: 02-14-12

Since last post: 4.1 years
Last activity: 17 days

Posted on 03-27-12 06:07:46 PM

Link | Quote

Originally posted by cpubasic13
Originally posted by Girlydragon
I wouldn't really call it a scam even in the case of day-one DLC or things that are already on the disc, it's rude in a way and I don't like it, but not sure I'd label it a scam.

If you really are gonna charge for things that directly affect gameplay, at least make sure it's actually made and developed after the release.

Regarding the two things here: if it is developed before release, it should be available to everyone and not sold as day 1 DLC. Pre-order bonuses of DLC are also quite dumb unless it promises DLC that will come out sometime AFTER launch. Cosmetic items as pre-order bonuses that turn DLC later are absolutely fine as the art team is usually sitting around and doing nothing, so that is a good way to make that kind of stuff.

Day 1 DLC that will affect gameplay is atrocious in select cases. In single player games, a new weapon or such that will change the way you play slightly is absolutely fine... in a pre-order bonus, not strictly day 1 DLC. In multiplayer, everything should be available to everyone, and nobody should be able to "pay to win."

There are cases of both good DLC and bad DLC. Examples:

Good DLC:
-Railworks 2012 -- Each DLC is not mandatory, and the developers know it is a very niche game. You don't buy all the DLC for this game unless you like all sorts of trains. When this game goes on sale, the base game AND the Trains vs Zombies DLC go on sale, so they do know that typical gamers will pass buying every other DLC.
-Dungeon Defenders -- Some extra missions cost money as DLC, but most content is 100% free unless you don't own the game when the DLC is released. This applies mostly to holiday DLC, and this is a good model considering it is basically an MMO you don't pay monthly for. It is also cheap to begin with.
-Skullgirls -- The game isn't out yet and they promise DLC, but that is because making a character for the team actually does take a long time (1-2 months a character possibly?) and the first two DLC characters confirmed aren't even going to be included in the initial release in any form (unless they surprise us with them being unlockables instead). This is good for a fighting game.

Bad DLC:
-Mass Effect 3 -- You DO NOT release STORY IMPORTANT DLC on day 1. This was also created BEFORE release, with some lines from it leaked since July. Absolutely abysmal.
-Street Figher x Tekken -- 12 fully functioning characters available on the disc and already accessible by ways of glitches and copying some character data to a USB to access them. These are hidden characters that will be DLC when the Vita version comes out so that the Vita version makes them exclusive. Costumes are also on the disc, but Capcom will probably only release DLC for each costume change 2 characters at a time instead of a whole bundle. In fighting games, horrible as you basically lock half of the game away and give certain players that pay for more an advantage in tourneys.
-Dead Space series (or just one of the games, not sure) -- The DLC adds upgrades and, while wasn't developed as day 1 DLC, the DLC is impossible to disable and completely breaks the game in your favor, making you overpowered from start to finish. Bad, bad, bad.

There are more examples of both, but these should suffice for now.

Scam is probably the wrong thing to call it (in most cases) but at least you know what i'm getting at. The good DLC you mentioned is fine by me. Sadly, as long as their are Idiots and Rich (and possibly also stupid) Bastards companies like EA will carry on making pointless DLC that no-one likes.

____________________

I don't like the new pokemon by the way. my profile pic is something i edited when i was bored.

DigitalBasic
Pancakes!
Level: 174

Posts: 8712/9712
EXP: 70450102
For next: 447765

Since: 07-03-07

Pronouns: they/them

Since last post: 75 days
Last activity: 3 days

Posted on 03-27-12 08:13:08 PM

Link | Quote

If you don't like the DLC policies of a company

boycott.

By that I mean don't even pirate the game. Just forget it exists. Don't play it. Don't pay it any mind.

____________________

AlexAR
Member
Level: 39

Posts: 236/306
EXP: 388516
For next: 16255

Since: 11-30-07

Since last post: 9.0 years
Last activity: 9.0 years

Posted on 03-28-12 02:16:38 AM

Link | Quote

I don't really understand the question. DLC stands for Downloadable Content, which is simply a type of content. DLC is simply additional game content. It's like asking "Are games a scam"? There is good content and there is bad content. There is content with high prices, and content with low prices. If you want to enhance/extend a game that you enjoy and feel the asking price is justifiable on a piece of DLC, you buy it. If you don't, you don't buy it.

I do understand that the act of releasing DLC that was clearly part of the "Core" game on release day is douche move by the publisher/developer. But that's just an individual instance of bad DLC.

If you buy a horrible game that sucks in every way, you don't then ask blanket questions, "Are games a scam?"

but you know..watev

____________________
Visit Digital Space for my game news.

Rena
I had one (1) message in Discord deleted and proceeded to make a huge, huge mess about how it was a violation of free speech and how moderators are supposed to be spam janitors and nobody should have the right to tell me not to talk about school shootings
Level: 135

Posts: 4638/5390
EXP: 29075574
For next: 259431

Since: 07-22-07

Pronouns: he/him/whatever
From: RSP Segment 6

Since last post: 342 days
Last activity: 342 days

Posted on 03-28-12 08:47:43 AM

Link | Quote

Post #4638 · 03-28-12 03:47:43 AM

Basically to say whether DLC is good or not depends on a few simple questions:

Does it actually add new content to the game, or is it a part of the game that has to be bought separately? Was the game designed with this extra content in mind? (e.g. important parts of the story, games that can't be finished without DLC, etc)

Is it content that actually makes sense to charge for, or just crap churned out to make a buck? (e.g. entirely new levels/characters vs 200 variations on the same car/weapon/etc, things that serve no real purpose other than to be collected for $$$$ each)

Does it give a competitive advantage against players who don't have it? (basically turning the game into "whomever pays the most wins")

In other words, are they selling extras that make the game more fun, or extras that don't add anything (or even make the game less fun for those who don't have them, e.g. multiplayer superweapons)? Or are they just selling pieces of the game itself, that should have been included with the initial purchase?

It's actually a bit similar to ROM hacking: a hack that adds quite a bit to the game is considered good, while a hack that just recolours the player sprite isn't. In fact, it's really much the same thing - patches that modify/add to the game somehow. Except they're made by the developers and cost money.

____________________

Programs

stuff goes here

Log out Shut down

Post #4638...[blag][Twitter][Freenet]

paulguy

Green Birdo
Level: 93

Posts: 2126/2294
EXP: 8032372
For next: 20438

Since: 09-14-07

From: Buffalo, NY

Since last post: 9.7 years
Last activity: 9.7 years

Posted on 03-28-12 11:27:29 AM

Link | Quote

Paulguy's Post configuration

The fuck makes this site so broken on android?

I had a long post written out and it took several tries and then all I got was a blank white page with the donation bar at the bottom and nothing else, and it didn't write the post to the database. Piece of crap.

Basically, the point was that people will take way too much than they should from any company for a boycott to be awfully useful. It's hard to find devices anymore where the person who owns it has proper control over it and everything has ads and crap that spies on you for the sake of market research and nobody cares. People will go way further than they should to give up their rights for their favorite game series.

____________________

Lyskar
12210

-The Chaos within trumps the Chaos without-
Level: 192

Posts: 11076/12211
EXP: 99321192
For next: 552379

Since: 07-03-07

From: 52-2-88-7

Since last post: 7.4 years
Last activity: 7.3 years

Posted on 03-28-12 11:23:50 PM

Link | Quote

Stats

Time/Date
03-28-12 05:23:50 PM
Posts
11076
Days Here
1730
Level
157

Metal_Man88's Post

DLC as a whole is not a scam. Paying to unlock on-disc content is, as well as mandatory DLC used to prevent resales of games.

There, that's a simple way to put it.

____________________

Eisnaught - SSQ² - Mobius Roleplay - SSS

paulguy

Green Birdo
Level: 93

Posts: 2130/2294
EXP: 8032372
For next: 20438

Since: 09-14-07

From: Buffalo, NY

Since last post: 9.7 years
Last activity: 9.7 years

Posted on 03-29-12 12:49:24 AM

Link | Quote

Paulguy's Post configuration

Eh, it's not entirely as simple as that. Like some stuff is just exploitive of a lot of human behaviors. Like people who feel kind of like they're missing out if they don't have everything in a game. I know how that can be. Mostly launch day stuff. And of course multiplayer benefits for paying more.

I'd honestly say that anything that isn't some kind of separate campaign or gameplay mode or something is kind of ripoffy. If it's going to be content, I'd rather a large pack of assorted whatever for $20-30 like old sims expansions over one thing for $1-5. Of course, this doesn't equate to EA or whoever not sponging more money from people than they'll ever need, so it'll never happen. Things will continue to get worse and that's it.

____________________

DigitalBasic
Pancakes!
Level: 174

Posts: 8717/9712
EXP: 70450102
For next: 447765

Since: 07-03-07

Pronouns: they/them

Since last post: 75 days
Last activity: 3 days

Posted on 03-29-12 04:30:36 AM

Link | Quote

Originally posted by Metal_Man88
DLC as a whole is not a scam. Paying to unlock on-disc content is, as well as mandatory DLC used to prevent resales of games.

There, that's a simple way to put it.

Mandatory DLC used to prevent resales is also acceptable simply due to Gamestop and such raking in nothing but pure profit and actively pushing used sales even on day 1 of the game's release as soon as they have copies. This isn't an issue at all.

____________________

— Anya —

Trudging Scribe

Post 23077/23359

Posted on 03-29-12 12:57:06 PM

Link | Quote


	If I like a game enough, then I'll get all the DLCs that are story related, like with the Mass Effect series but I won't pay for extra armor and guns. ____________________

Tyty

Level: 165

Posts: 8532/8599
EXP: 58673518
For next: 262163

Since: 07-07-07

Since last post: 9.8 years
Last activity: 9.8 years

Posted on 03-29-12 02:17:33 PM

Link | Quote

Originally posted by cpubasic13

Mandatory DLC used to prevent resales is also acceptable simply due to Gamestop and such raking in nothing but pure profit and actively pushing used sales even on day 1 of the game's release as soon as they have copies. This isn't an issue at all.

I know gamestop is evil and stuff, but used games REALLY don't have that big an impact on the games market. There will still be plenty of people who buy new, especially on day 1, where the used prices are barely lower than a new copy's.

It really bugs me when game companies go around targeting used games as their biggest reason for not making money. It's not that, it's because they make shit games, and then they won't allow someone who buys used to play actual features of the game until they get DLC (which very well might make it more expensive than buying new anyways) is a huge dick move. They don't see profits from the used game sales, no, but this has been going on since... well, forever. I don't see why they suddenly want to start pointing fingers at used games as to why they aren't doing as well as they used to.

____________________
--------------------
I sure am in a dilly of a pickle.

paulguy

Green Birdo
Level: 93

Posts: 2131/2294
EXP: 8032372
For next: 20438

Since: 09-14-07

From: Buffalo, NY

Since last post: 9.7 years
Last activity: 9.7 years

Posted on 03-29-12 04:40:42 PM

Link | Quote

Paulguy's Post configuration

I imagine a big reason they're not making as much as they may have been previously is that people have less money to spend on extravagant things.

____________________

Peardian

Magikoopa

16/3/1: KvSG #479 is up!

Level: 157

Posts: 5781/7597
EXP: 48602948
For next: 976285

Since: 08-02-07

From: Isle Delfino

Since last post: 10 days
Last activity: 13 hours

Posted on 03-29-12 07:06:19 PM

Link | Quote

Where's the "I don't play games that have DLC so I don't care" option? Because none of the other options apply for me.

____________________
-Peardian-

"Kindness is the language which the deaf can hear and the blind can see." -Mark Twain
Get a load of this!

Posts: 4650/5390
EXP: 29075574
For next: 259431

Since: 07-22-07

Pronouns: he/him/whatever
From: RSP Segment 6

Since last post: 342 days
Last activity: 342 days

Posted on 03-31-12 07:21:07 AM (last edited by Rena at 03-31-12 04:21 AM)

Link | Quote

Post #4650 · 03-31-12 02:21:07 AM

Originally posted by Tyty
I don't see why they suddenly want to start pointing fingers at used games as to why they aren't doing as well as they used to.

Because now they have the technology to do something about it, dickish or not.

Originally posted by Metal_Man88
DLC as a whole is not a scam. Paying to unlock on-disc content is, as well as mandatory DLC used to prevent resales of games.

There, that's a simple way to put it.

Well, and some just abuse it. A single shirt for your character? $3. Oh, you wanted a different colour? Another $3. One with your own picture on it? $8. etc... You get games where you could spend thousands on DLC and not really gain anything, and/or where you're paying for things that, in the days before such things existed, would have just been included with the game.

You can see similar with "in-app purchases" on phones too. Apps claim to work for free, but after a few uses, require you to pay for further uses. There was a camera app that charged for "film". In reality it's just a sleazy subscription model, where you generally aren't told about it until using up the free period. I think this is against Apple's policy at least, but they still do it as long as they can get away with.

____________________

Programs

stuff goes here

Log out Shut down

Post #4650...[blag][Twitter][Freenet]

Register - Login
Views: 99802886	Main - Memberlist - Active users - Calendar - Wiki - IRC Chat - Online users Ranks - Rules/FAQ - Stats - Latest Posts - Color Chart - Smilies	05-03-22 07:13:51 AM

Query execution time:	0.146583 seconds
Script execution time:	0.050939 seconds
Total render time:	0.197522 seconds