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05-03-22 08:36:23 PM
Jul - Computers and Technology - Flash vs Java applets New poll - New thread - New reply
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Rena
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Posted on 10-24-07 03:43:33 AM Link | Quote
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I thought it might be fun to make some Flash games, but I've used Flash before and found it pretty limited. Java, being a more powerful language, seems like a better way to make a game. There must be some reason Flash games are so much more popular, though. Is it just because they're easier to make?

Also, can Java do things like hardware-accelerated graphics, sound, 3D, etc?

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Posted on 10-24-07 03:46:50 AM; last edit by NightKev on 10-24-07 03:47 AM Link | Quote
I think Flash is faster than Java.[citation needed]

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neotransotaku
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Posted on 10-24-07 05:41:13 AM Link | Quote
Flash will load faster than Java.

Java has a 3D api, sound API, and an option to use openGL if possible. I recall that OpenGL was an experimental option on windows... But, if they made a PSX emulator using Java, i'm sure the API exists.
chungy
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Posted on 10-24-07 04:44:03 PM Link | Quote
Flash has drag-and-drop game templates people like to use, but I wouldn't be surprised if they exist for Java too

also, Java does indeed support faster graphics and stuff. Like it can actually play a video directly to your cards framebuffer so it won't get all slow full screen.
Drag
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Posted on 10-24-07 05:18:59 PM Link | Quote
Drag's Post #356
Oh god, where do I start...

90% of the flash games I've ever played are buggy. First off, actionscript just isn't good for games, in my opinion. I mean, sure it's easy to use (every single command possible is right there in a drop-down menu for your disposal), but the programmers tend to not program things very well. It *is* object oriented, but people don't use it right. They have each individual object running its own code asynchronously to the rest of the game, which is a very sloppy way to do things.

Think of it this way. With timed programming, the code has a heartbeat. When the heart beat occurs, the game is supposed to run each object's code sequentially. This way, there's some uniformity, and you at LEAST have some control over things. For instance, "scroll the screen, move all of the objects, THEN run the physics". Not "run everything's physics all together, and start moving everything to account for the scrolling as you do it". It leaves a LOT of holes for bugs to pop out of.

The worst thing is that LOTS of flash games are guilty of sloppy programming structures like this, which leads to buggy games. This is all because the actionscripting allows programmers to be lazy and sloppy like this. Not good. F-.

On the positive side to flash games, you have frames, so it's easy to create a game that has more than one stage. Each stage is just another frame. You just need to add some preventative measures to account for the fact that many plugins and even the right click menu allow you to go forward and back frames. But better is that flash is based on vector graphics, so you can make games that look really good, and you can play the game at any size, and it won't degrade to crap.

In my opinion, java is infinitely better suited/equipped for games than flash is. I mean, flash can run inside a web browser, fine and dandy, but so can java.

Now, true, I don't really like java (as a language) that much, but I'd prefer java over flash. Java also is object oriented, but only one line can run at a time (unless you use threading, but that's really overkill for something like this), so already, you can't be lazy with your structures. You can't just have every object running code simultaneously, so you have to direct the programming to the objects in a sequential manner. So already, the game engine will be more airtight.

The downside to java is that you can't easily do smooth vector graphics, so you need some good pixelart, which sometimes even looks better than vector graphics anyway. You can't rotate or scale that easily (at least not that I know of), so that's a drawback. Well, unless you feel like writing the code for that yourself, or using a library or something.

Either way, flash isn't bad if the programmer is aware of the quirks, and can resist the temptation of being lazy. However, since a vast majority of flash games tend to be buggy in some way, shape, or form, this seems to not happen often.

In summary, flash is extremely easy to create something with, so it tends to be popular. Flash games are only popular because of their number, and because you don't have to be a skilled programmer to make something with it. This is both good and bad. Bad because it means the programmer can be sloppy, lazy, and inefficient, and it won't matter.

Java is an actual programming language, but you need to be a somewhat competent programmer to use it successfully. It's harder to use, but generally much more powerful. Not to mention, the compilers usually are pretty strict, so you end up fixing smaller bugs, which usually leads to a better program.

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Posted on 10-24-07 05:23:17 PM; last edit by Xkeeper on 10-24-07 05:24 PM Link | Quote
Daily Cycle II ~ 3480
Java is slow, bulky, and requires some humungous download. NOt to mention it sticks a tray icon in your taskbar, tries to autoupdate, and likes to hang browsers if it crashes. Flash ... works.

Though if you don't mind dealing with C++, just use that (and maybe SDL) instead of dealing with Java "oops, this runs slower than shit" or Flash.

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chungy
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Posted on 10-24-07 05:31:06 PM Link | Quote
Originally posted by Xkeeper
Flash ... works.

Only on Windows. Apparently they've even let the quality of the Mac OS X player slip a lot (whereas it used to be on par with the Windows version). If you're using Linux or OS X (and that's pretty much the only choices you have; at least with Java you can use almost any OS you desire), prepare for tons of crashes and desyncs because of the Flash player.

And the claim that Java is slow... it's been an urban legend since Java's original introduction. It's never been true.
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Posted on 10-24-07 05:36:23 PM; last edit by Darkdata on 10-24-07 05:39 PM Link | Quote
DPP - [internet://board/post288.bit] - 10-24-07 05:36:23 PM
File Edit View Settings ?
Originally posted by chungy
Originally posted by Xkeeper
Flash ... works.

Only on Windows. Apparently they've even let the quality of the Mac OS X player slip a lot (whereas it used to be on par with the Windows version). If you're using Linux or OS X (and that's pretty much the only choices you have; at least with Java you can use almost any OS you desire), prepare for tons of crashes and desyncs because of the Flash player.

And the claim that Java is slow... it's been an urban legend since Java's original introduction. It's never been true.


My web browser disagrees with you.
Java has always been slow when it is loaded as an applet on my broswer. It takes time and likes to hang.

There are some things of flash I do not like, it can be annoying and has been used for many banner ads. *adblock/blockcontent* However it has done quite a bit of good, with unique ideas sometimes popping up.

Now, java programs (not Online) I do not mind as much. They do their task.

I just find Flash more suitable to the web.

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Rena
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Posted on 10-24-07 07:11:19 PM Link | Quote
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Right, that's about what I figured. Flash is easy but not good for games, while Java is powerful but (at least on Windows) resource-hogging. :-/

One thing I'd definitely want in a game is a lot of music. Of course, that likely means a long load time. What I thought I could do is stream the music as the game is played, and cache it on the hard disk, so that the next time that song is used (if you play the game again or whatever), it doesn't have to be downloaded again. Can an applet do that, though? It would need to store those files somewhere and I can't see applets just being allowed to drop files on the disk like that. Also, just what sort of sound capabilities does it have? I've only ever used sound with SDL, it's simple enough, but I don't know if it'd be at all the same in Java.

Flash doesn't seem very appealing to me. I thought there might be some reason besides "it's easy" that people use it, but if that's all there is, pfft. I'd probably find Java easier than Flash anyway, given I know C++ and PHP already.

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Drag
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Posted on 10-24-07 11:32:02 PM; last edit by Drag on 10-24-07 11:39 PM Link | Quote
Drag's Post #357
Originally posted by Xkeeper
Java is slow,

This was once true, it took java a while to start up, but if you have the latest version of the runtime environment, this hardly applies anymore.
Originally posted by Xkeeper
bulky,

It depends on what you run. Java does have overhead though, in order to maintain its portability.
Originally posted by Xkeeper
and requires some humungous download.

13.93MB isn't humongous at all. Or 373.39KB if you want the installer that works online.
Originally posted by Xkeeper
NOt to mention it sticks a tray icon in your taskbar,

So does skype, trillian, aim, winamp, any kind of antivirus software, most firewall programs. Also, you can disable the tray icon if it really gets on your nerves.
Originally posted by Xkeeper
tries to autoupdate,

You can turn this off too.
Originally posted by Xkeeper
and likes to hang browsers if it crashes.

...ok yeah, you got me on that one.

Originally posted by Xkeeper
Flash ... works.

If you don't mind buggy games.

Originally posted by Xkeeper
Though if you don't mind dealing with C++, just use that (and maybe SDL) instead of dealing with Java "oops, this runs slower than shit" or Flash.

This defeats the purpose of Java and Flash. These two things are designed to be integrated into web pages. C++/SDL requires a download, and can't be integrated into a web page. For example, it'd be pretty awkward to require a program download in order to navigate a web page. Not to mention, sometimes you're in a situation where you can't download onto the computer you're using, like if you're in a classroom, or a computer lab, or at work, or something. Java and Flash are pretty handy there, because you don't need to manually download anything. It works with the web browser.

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Rena
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Posted on 10-25-07 12:05:44 AM Link | Quote
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Originally posted by Drag
Originally posted by Xkeeper
NOt to mention it sticks a tray icon in your taskbar,

So does skype, trillian, aim, winamp, any kind of antivirus software, most firewall programs. Also, you can disable the tray icon if it really gets on your nerves.
Wait, how do you do that?

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chungy
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Posted on 10-25-07 01:32:58 AM Link | Quote
Originally posted by Drag
Originally posted by Xkeeper
and likes to hang browsers if it crashes.

...ok yeah, you got me on that one.

It happens with all plugins; actually it should probably be considered a browser bug, if they crash/hang because of a plugin.
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Posted on 10-25-07 02:34:09 AM Link | Quote
Drag's Post #360
Originally posted by HyperHacker
Originally posted by Drag
Originally posted by Xkeeper
NOt to mention it sticks a tray icon in your taskbar,

So does skype, trillian, aim, winamp, any kind of antivirus software, most firewall programs. Also, you can disable the tray icon if it really gets on your nerves.
Wait, how do you do that?

start -> control panel -> java -> advanced -> miscellaneous -> Place java icon in system tray.

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Rena
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Posted on 10-25-07 03:30:30 AM; last edit by HyperHacker on 10-25-07 03:31 AM Link | Quote
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Ah, and you can turn off auto-update too. Thanks. (I'll leave that on though. )

So is there any way to cache files on the hard disk as an applet?

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Posted on 10-25-07 04:20:30 AM Link | Quote
10-24-07 10:20:30 PM
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710
Flash: Easy way to do it, limited abilities, sorta 'fast'

Java: Versatile, tricky, sometimes problematic, but more powerful

Java wins out, except for one thing: Applet programming is a pain compared to normal java programs. They could always try to make it easier. Urgh

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Posted on 10-25-07 05:34:06 AM Link | Quote
Originally posted by HyperHacker
Ah, and you can turn off auto-update too. Thanks. (I'll leave that on though. )

So is there any way to cache files on the hard disk as an applet?


Pending security issues, I'm sure you can write to disk since the JRE is basically JDK without the compilation stuff. Just make an applet and see if you can create a file and write to it. Initial research suggests that applets are cached.
Rena
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Posted on 10-25-07 04:08:44 PM Link | Quote
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Well yeah, that's just it. Security issues. I'm not sure browsers will allow applets to just write to the disk.

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Posted on 10-25-07 04:41:20 PM Link | Quote
Browsers have little to do with it. By design, plugins can be very dangerous, potentially destroying all data your user privileges allow, if you were unlucky enough.
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Jul - Computers and Technology - Flash vs Java applets New poll - New thread - New reply


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