Jul -- Gaming: Sonic 4 (Episode 1 - 10/7 iOS, 10/11 Wii, 10/12 PS3, 10/13 360)

Lyskar
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Posted on 10-15-10 05:43:41 AM (last edited by Metal_Man88 at 10-15-10 02:55 AM)

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Metal_Man88's Post

Yes. And now that I've had 5 years of them, and they can't understand that sometimes, quality comes in fits and starts instead of all at once, I'm just going to go on the warpath against them.

Someone should give the unpleasable fans bad reviews instead. They're like bad games themselves--unresponsive to input, full of weird hang-ups, and unable to deal with criticism.

By all means, insult that wacky physics thing--it truly is wacky. Totally wacky, outer space fakeo physics. Do they suck? Yeah.

But on the other hand, claiming the game is garbage and unredeemable is just absurd.

Of course, one can dislike the game, sure. It's just those really nutty people who insist that liking the game is a crime and/or proclaim overly dramatic statements of how it's worse than every other Sonic game related to it... it's just ridiculous.

And now, for some irony.

Shadic, you're giving the 'Hardcore' fans too much credit. I've seen them insult Sonic Rush, of all things; they hated Sonic Advance 2. They hated Sonic Advance 3 for the partner system, yet they hated Sonic Advance 1 for being too slow. (So then they hated Sonic Advance 2 for being too fast and bland.) There are reasonable Sonic fans, but I can assure you, a lot of 'Hardcore' fans will mindlessly hate on ANYTHING that isn't a rom hack of the original games. Just watch them tear Sonic Colors apart. You'll see.

And when they do, I'll be tempted to create a picture called the 'Sonic Fan Cycle', where it goes...

1. Trailers are released. Fans hyperventilate about either how totally awesome or totally bad game will be.
2. More info is released. Irrationality continues to build. A few fans decide it will be okay, while others fight to the death over half-revealed features.
3. The game is first released. Media outlets like game; fans hate everything about it. They proclaim it as the next incarnation of the antichrist, then attack anyone who likes it.
4. Years pass. Hyperventilating fans' ultra-hate loses its power; the game is seen more for what it is than flimsy first impressions. Often too late for the developers of said game, who have probably been thrown away because of those influential people who scream loudly how much they hate everything.

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DigitalBasic
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Posted on 10-15-10 05:47:08 AM

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Posted on 10-15-10 07:03:14 AM

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Originally posted by cpubasic13
<object width="640" height="505"><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/NlqTd_VBeKY?fs=1&hl=en_US&hd=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="505"></embed></object>

in regards to the physics

When I said Sega will fix it in the next episode I didn't realize it was THAT bad. Heck the physics in that vid are practically broken, why didn't Sega fix this before the game was released. I mean I no Sonic fan but that is certainly not what I expect for a game calling itself Sonic 4

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Lyskar
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Posted on 10-15-10 07:33:09 AM

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Metal_Man88's Post

Because they never seemed to make up their mind what, in fact, they wanted.

That said, the physics do not magically rape all enjoyment of the game, nor do all the things in that video happen without some intentional attempts to cause them (about 50% of them require you to try to cause it on purpose).

On the other hand, I have my doubts about whether SEGA will be able to escape the 'meh'/'decent' category, if they keep waffling between trying to reuse old stuff and 3D effects/HD/motion controlled stuff.

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Posted on 10-15-10 01:37:24 PM

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Originally posted by Metal_Man88

That said, the physics do not magically rape all enjoyment of the game, nor do all the things in that video happen without some intentional attempts to cause them (about 50% of them require you to try to cause it on purpose).

Except playing it, I had fun with the first level, and then things got bad. Especially due to physics.

No momentum, all the games DIMPS worked on on the GBA had momentum, why get rid of it?

In order to spin and not uncurl you have to hold down, holding down you lose your forward momentum on hills, since you let go of forward, which is weird. In order to keep moving forwards downhill while rolling, you need to hold down and right at the same time. That's just... annoying.

Mad Gear, oh lord mad gear, that level's design is pretty infuriating. It's like Sandopolis in S3&K with doors that go too fast, and annoying gear platforms that blend in with the background.

The casino level was okay, it had neat gimmicks... but trying to use those cannons to get ANYWHERE is annoying, not to mention random spike traps offscreen during some of the cannon segments.

I didn't even get to the labyrinth level yet.

All in all, it's killed by physics and bad level design choices, the level design overall is okay, but some areas just kill. The physics make the level design seem worse. Way worse.

The graphics, alright, a bit odd in some places with parts blending into the background too much, but otherwise okay.

The music, isn't good. What kills it is the samples. They should've just let Jun Senoue play his guitar the whole time, the game would've sounded way better.

And you're looking at someone who 100% completed the secret rings, and played the hell out of the GBA games. This isn't modern vs. classic here, Sonic 4 is not a good game.

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Shadic
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Posted on 10-15-10 05:11:34 PM

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Originally posted by Tyty
And you're looking at someone who 100% completed the secret rings, and played the hell out of the GBA games. This isn't modern vs. classic here, Sonic 4 is not a good game.

And it's doesn't even have to be a good game! I mean, what makes a good game anyways? A skilled combination of presentation, graphics, character control, and level design? The exact definition of "good" is of course something to debate, but I'd certainly debate that this isn't one. Anyways, it's not the point that this isn't that good of a game, it's that it's a shoddy game that I can't enjoy. I think Sonic Adventure 2: Battle is a pretty crap game when you come down to it - I'd give it a 7/10 at the most. But I've but 300 hours into that game, and you know why? Because despite all its flaws, I was still at least enjoying myself. For some reason, despite the voice acting, the crappy camera, the mediocre level designs, the bipolar music, the mech levels, and all of the glitches, I was still enjoying myself.

Sonic 4 lacks that fun. And shit, I sunk at least 10 hours into Sonic Advance 2.

And MM88 - Stop attributing the complaints of an annoying vocal 10% of "oldschool" Sonic fans as if they were the magical majority. Yes, there was tons of debate about the four seconds of "gameplay" shown in the first real Sonic 4 trailer, and people were indeed complaining about it. However, they were the clear minority, with most people simply wishing that they could see something more substantial.

I don't see how you can say that a platforming game "isn't ruined" by shoddy physics, considering that's what platforms are almost entirely based on, especially Sonic. The other is level design, which is better than most recent Sonic games, it's obviously designed for widescreen TVs, and I really want a damn Ocarina/Gecko code to let me scroll out the camera a bit.

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Lyskar
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Posted on 10-15-10 06:40:23 PM (last edited by Metal_Man88 at 10-15-10 03:56 PM)

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Metal_Man88's Post

Originally posted by Shadic
I don't see how you can say that a platforming game "isn't ruined" by shoddy physics

Originally posted by Shadic
Because despite all its flaws, I was still at least enjoying myself.

Whoops!

Also, the level design is much better if you have a widescreen TV, apparently, meaning your experience was taken down a few more pegs by that.

Finally, the physics stop coming into play once you learn how to play by their rules. If you just kept trying to do it old school in spite of knowing how to do things in the physics, then what can I say? You wouldn't get far by playing NSMBWii purely by SMB3's rules (Mostly, you couldn't spin-smash anything), although I will acknowledge they did a far better job porting over the same physics there.

Of course, you can also just hate how they work to the point of just not playing the game, but... let me just put it this way, Ty-ty: you learned to abide by SATSR's physics. What makes these equally wacky ones worse? I won't try to change your mind about anything, but I wonder how, in your mind, the wild out-of-control Sonic rollercoaster of SATSR was more playable. Or if I misread you on that, whether this is another case of SATSR to you. (Since I'm unsure if you managed to survive the harrowing, annoying trek to the end of SATSR.)

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Shadic
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Posted on 10-15-10 07:45:04 PM (last edited by Shadic at 10-15-10 08:02 PM)

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Originally posted by Metal_Man88
Originally posted by Shadic
I don't see how you can say that a platforming game "isn't ruined" by shoddy physics
Originally posted by Shadic
Because despite all its flaws, I was still at least enjoying myself.
Whoops!

Nice job trying to be a smartass while entirely missing my point.

I was saying that the game can have many flaws if they don't significantly impact the "fun-factor." In my opinion, the stupid camera, crappy physics, and others faults do.

Edit: Here's some humor:

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Lyskar
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Posted on 10-16-10 12:46:18 AM

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Metal_Man88's Post

Originally posted by Shadic
I was saying that the game can have many flaws if they don't significantly impact the "fun-factor." In my opinion, the stupid camera, crappy physics, and others faults do.

Which was what I was saying. In my opinion, the graphics, physics, and music flaws don't significantly impact the core gameplay. Don't need to get worked up here; a little good-natured ribbing won't kill ya.

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Lunaria

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Posted on 10-16-10 12:50:32 AM (last edited by Lunaria at 10-15-10 09:52 PM)

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So... is the game worth getting?

I mean, I'm not exactly well funded and I just found a used copy of four swords for the GC which I have wanted for a long time.

Also, about the argument, I'm going to have to both agree and disagree with Shadic and MM88.

If a game is not fun to play, then it's not a good game. Of course that's a question of taste in some cases, but if you generally like this type of game then it's something in it which is bad, most likely.

I'm not exactly a huge sonic fan, I like the characters and I enjoyed some of the games. But I generally find the original series more questionable what they throw at you then the rush or advance series. I never really had any physics issues with the series as whole before, but I do find it stupid when you're thrown into a situation where you go really fast but don't have the time to deal with obstacles unless you know they are coming up. :/

So again, I question, for someone like me, is the game worth getting?
Or should I just skip it in favor of some other game.

Edit:

Originally posted by Metal_Man88
Don't need to get worked up here; a little good-natured ribbing won't kill ya.

I find this remark quite funny after you made a smart ass remark in your last post. V_v;

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Posted on 10-16-10 03:05:53 AM (last edited by vinnyboiler at 10-16-10 12:08 AM)

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Originally posted by goldenhearted
This is the typical sonic cycle these days

1. New info release of new Sonic game, people say it’s gonna be Sonic’s comeback.
2. More or less, hype is generated as info, screens, vids, etc. releases.
3. Game comes out, it ends up like mediocre-shit. People say nothing can save Sonic.
4. Go back to #1

Were currently at number 3 yay, can't wait to get to number 4 ... WAIT THERE'S A PROBLEM
The games are episonic, this breaks the Sonic cycle. This means the Sonic 4 can actually still be saved!

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Shadic
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Posted on 10-16-10 03:23:26 AM

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Originally posted by Lunaria
So again, I question, for someone like me, is the game worth getting?
Or should I just skip it in favor of some other game.

Four Swords would probably last you longer than Sonic 4, and you'd have more fun doing it. If you're not really a Sonic fan, and not that big of a platforming fan in general, it's entirely skippable.

And MM88 - I find it funny that you accuse me of getting worked up, considering it's typically you who takes things seriously.

Hell, I posted a comic.

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Lyskar
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Posted on 10-16-10 04:32:13 AM

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Metal_Man88's Post

Originally posted by Lunaria
So... is the game worth getting?

Originally posted by Lunaria
I'm not exactly a huge sonic fan, I like the characters and I enjoyed some of the games. But I generally find the original series more questionable what they throw at you then the rush or advance series. I never really had any physics issues with the series as whole before, but I do find it stupid when you're thrown into a situation where you go really fast but don't have the time to deal with obstacles unless you know they are coming up. :/

The answer is that you'll probably hate some stages and like some others. Since you're not much of a Sonic fan, you shouldn't bother; the game is loaded to the gils with references to other games, and if you don't get those, then half of the game is just pointless pit-avoidance, occasionally laced with the evil 'obstacles you must know about in advance' problem.

Originally posted by Lunaria

Originally posted by Metal_Man88
Don't need to get worked up here; a little good-natured ribbing won't kill ya.

I find this remark quite funny after you made a smart ass remark in your last post. V_v;

Originally posted by Shadic
And MM88 - I find it funny that you accuse me of getting worked up, considering it's typically you who takes things seriously. Hell, I posted a comic.

So let me get this straight: you can't ask people to take smart-a#$ remarks as benign jabs, and you aren't allowed to do so if you're someone who takes many things seriously.

Well, I'm afraid I am entirely too silly for you then. :p

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Posted on 10-16-10 12:19:17 PM

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Originally posted by Metal_Man88
The answer is that you'll probably hate some stages and like some others. Since you're not much of a Sonic fan, you shouldn't bother; the game is loaded to the gils with references to other games, and if you don't get those, then half of the game is just pointless pit-avoidance, occasionally laced with the evil 'obstacles you must know about in advance' problem.

Oh I am a huge platforming fan though. It's just that both the old sonic games and anything on the consoles (hand held have been great so far) just don't seam to work for me.

So I guess I should skip out on this one.

Originally posted by Metal_Man88
So let me get this straight: you can't ask people to take smart-a#$ remarks as benign jabs, and you aren't allowed to do so if you're someone who takes many things seriously.

Well, I'm afraid I am entirely too silly for you then. :p

The issue was that you sounded highly serious in your post.

My apologize if you where only joking around. :p

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Lyskar
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Posted on 10-16-10 06:54:05 PM (last edited by Metal_Man88 at 10-16-10 05:40 PM)

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Metal_Man88's Post

The problem is, I often sound serious or use serious wordings when I'm not. It's some sort of personality defect.

As to be honest, I was more curious as to why people disliked Sonic 4 and annoyed by the robo-bashers rather than seriously bothered.

But I guess I've come to a conclusion, one which is a bit unfortunate. You either like or dislike Sonic 4 based on the physics. If you can adapt to them quickly and/or don't have any reservations on those, the game is decent. (See: many of the good reviews of it.)

On the other hand, if physics is a big thing for you in platformers, avoid the game at all costs, because the bizarre loss of momentum, standing sideways, and other wacky cartoon physics just aren't for you in that case.

tl;dr version:

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Posted on 10-16-10 09:05:36 PM

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	Haha, that image. Judging by all the physics complaints this game is having, I think that I'll give it a miss. (The spin dash and springs in that chorale video really are ) ____________________

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Posted on 10-16-10 09:31:57 PM

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If you are put off by the video, remember that the momentum thing is solved if you just hold right, and most of that stuff you have to actually try to do. The problem is that at first, manually maintaining momentum is counterintuitive because you never had to do that in a previous Sonic game. Plus if you think that Sonic takes too long to get to top speed, you can solve that by double jumping. Double jumping a lot will get you to go twice as fast as the running shoes, so you really have complete control over your speed in a weird way. I'm enjoying the crap out this game despite the crappy physics because they are easy to work around. But like Metal Man said, you will either hate the game because of the physics, or you will enjoy the game in spite of the physics.

Also, to whoever beat this in two hours, uh, isn't that how long it would take to beat the first 4 stages of any 2d sonic game? I mean each stage has 3 acts, and each act must be completed in under 10 minutes, so that means that each stage takes a maximum of 30 minutes to complete. Therefore four 30 minute stages equal 2 hours of gameplay max. Considering that most of us beat each act at well under the 10 minute mark, even with collecting all of the chaos emeralds, any classic Sonic game could be beaten through stage 4 in well under 2 hours

The only way it would take you longer is if you continually died A LOT in each act so that each act took you more than 10 minutes to complete, and if that's the case then the game is either too hard, or you suck at gaming. The fact that it took you 2 hours just to half ass you way through the stages of Sonic 4 proves that it actually takes LONGER to complete than the 3 classic genesis games. Remember that his is not the whole game, but only the first 4 stages. If you didn't enjoy playing though, then yeah that's a legitimate matter of taste.

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Shadic
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Posted on 10-16-10 11:15:57 PM

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Earlier Sonic games were much more difficult than this, and thus dying is relatively acceptable. Plus, if you played Sonic 3 for the first time, and Sonic 4 for the first time, I can easily see Sonic 3 taking more time.

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Posted on 10-17-10 08:20:14 PM

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Played the demo on the 360 and while yes I did try to emulate the wonky physics, I found myself able to play just fine after a couple playthroughs of act 1 and holding a direction most of the time. I'm considering grabbing the full version now because i think I had sufficient fun with the demo.

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