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Jul - News - Supreme Court: Gun possession is fundamental to American freedom New poll - New thread - New reply
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FieryIce

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Posted on 06-28-10 01:55:48 PM (last edited by FieryIce at 06-28-10 10:57 AM) Link | Quote
Source...

WASHINGTON—The Supreme Court ruled for the first time that gun possession is fundamental to American freedom, giving federal judges power to strike down state and local weapons laws for infringing on Second Amendment rights.

The ruling was 5-4 along the court's usual conservative-liberal split. Justice Samuel Alito wrote the majority opinion.

The court in 2008 voided a District of Columbia handgun ban, and Monday's ruling extended that to the rest of the country. Because Washington is federal territory and not part of a state, the legal basis for imposing federal constitutional limits on gun laws adopted by states had been unclear.

The legal question before the court had much to do with questions of constitutional history. Before the Civil War, courts held that the Bill of Rights applied only to the federal government. After the Union victory, the Reconstruction amendments were adopted to elevate individual rights over state powers and cement the federal role in enforcing them.

The Supreme Court has subsequently held that many constitutional rights considered fundamental to American principles of liberty override state laws. However, more technical provisions—such as the Fifth Amendment requirement that grand juries approve criminal indictments—apply only to the federal government and don't necessarily bind states.

Monday's ruling elevates the Second Amendment right to bear arms to the status of a fundamental right that states can't abridge.

"It is clear that the Framers and ratifiers of the Fourteenth Amendment counted the right to keep and bear arms among those fundamental rights necessary to our system of ordered liberty," wrote Justice Alito in his majority opinion.

Two years ago, after the court voted 5-4 along its conservative-liberal split to strike down the Washington ordinance, gun-rights forces filed suit against weapons laws around the country. The case decided Monday involved a challenge to handgun bans in Chicago and Oak Park, Ill.

At arguments in March, liberal Justice Stephen Breyer, one of the dissenters Monday, said gun possession was different in nature from the other rights described in the Constitution.

When state or local lawmakers enact gun regulations, they do so aiming to protect public safety, he said.

Justice Anthony Kennedy suggested during the March arguments that Chicago's fears of unleashing an arsenal on city streets were overblown, observing that even when the court has recognized a right, "the states have substantial latitude...to impose reasonable regulations."


That's the one issue I'm undecided. On one side I think there shouldn't be guns at all, nobody should have them and everything could (keyword there) be more peaceful... But then, they're there already and I think it's against people's privacy to forbid them from having them ... w/e If they think gun possession is fundamental to freedom, hopefully they'll also think being able to marry whoever you want that can consent back is also fundamental to freedom.
Peardian

  
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Posted on 06-28-10 02:09:33 PM Link | Quote
Even if guns were banned, people would break the law and obtain/possess them illegally. Said people would then outmatch any regular civillian in, say, an armed robbery.



We really need to develop a better alternative for civilians to use, strong enough to incapacitate but safe enough to not be so lethal or dangerous.

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Posted on 06-28-10 05:46:32 PM (last edited by Hiryuu at 06-28-10 02:47 PM) Link | Quote
Originally posted by Peardian
Even if guns were banned, people would break the law and obtain/possess them illegally. Said people would then outmatch any regular civillian in, say, an armed robbery...


Which makes advocating gun laws absurd. People are just going to go around it. You have no laws in place and keep people on equal grounds and you don't have this problem. Whether or not you have a gun yourself doesn't really matter. If you give those that don't think right that particular inch, people will likely regret it.

And I know a lot of people tend to be like 'well if there weren't any guns there'd never be any shootings anymore'. Load of BS. It'd only go up. Human nature, for those that are inclined in that way, will never change. I'd rather be on equal terms, in that vein, than not at all. I'd rather we never take up arms like that. Trust me. But there are things that you keep around to safeguard yourself when there are others that don't think of your whole utopian 'oh let's be nice to each other'. Unfortunately, there are just too many people that are wired that way for a gun abolishment to make any decent sense.

And you can go ahead and make all the 'non-lethal' stuff that you want. People already know how to make guns and have for hundreds of years. They'll continue to make them if it boils down to doing so in their basements, the black market, whatever you can think of...so you just have to deal with that advance in our technology. It's only going to keep going as time goes on.

And furthermore, think about it with more than a local perspective. Any invasion by another outside force would likely best be met with some sort of force. You get shot at with whatever's life-threatening, it's really fair game at that point. That's just how it is. You've been placed in that position. If someone puts you or someone you know and care for in that position, chances are you'll be put into you own position to defend. A law like this wouldn't allow you as such.
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Posted on 06-28-10 06:12:15 PM Link | Quote
Not that everyone having guns prevents deadly shootings.


Seriously, seems to me like this doesn't change shit. Guns don't serve as deterent anymore, so who cares
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Posted on 06-28-10 06:27:37 PM (last edited by Terra at 06-28-10 03:35 PM) Link | Quote
A lot of gun-related deaths are accidents or suicides. If fewer people owned guns, such deaths would be reduced.

I may be biased because I've grown up terrified of my father, his psycho outrages over my life decisions, and his gun collection. But I don't think that so many people should own devices whose primary use is causing the death of other humans. One's rights should stop where they begin to infringe on another's right to live. Now, if you're sustenance hunting, or live in a rural area with the threat of dangerous wild animals, that's different, and there are different types of guns used against animals. But those should be regulated and restricted and people shouldn't be able to take them with them everywhere. Why would you need a gun at your job in an office tower, or at the bank, or at the grocery store, even if you do hunt every so often or shoot targets or whatever? And why would you (police, military, security, and similar roles excepted when on the job) ever need a gun whose only purpose is to kill humans? Last I checked, murder, even attempted murder, is illegal.

Besides, having a gun doesn't create a force field that stops any bullets from striking you. More people having guns creates a culture of fear that should be unnecessary. Not everyone is able or willing to take the time to learn how to use a gun safely, or able or willing to spend money on a gun, ammunition, and a safe place to store it. Even if they did, would they really use it in a self-defence emergency? Some people have a very strong inner aversion to killing.

Edit: In addition, there are so many other ways to defend oneself. Pepper spray, tasers, carrying a blunt, hard object like a piece of pipe, and (for those willing to put in the time and effort) learning a martial art. None of those require guns.

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Hiryuu

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Posted on 06-28-10 06:34:24 PM Link | Quote
Originally posted by Terra
...Last I checked, murder, even attempted murder, is illegal...


And this has stopped people?
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Posted on 06-28-10 06:37:17 PM (last edited by Terra at 06-28-10 03:37 PM) Link | Quote
My point is, if murder is illegal, why should possession of a device whose sole intended purpose is to commit an act of murder be legal?

Take drugs. Possessing cocaine is a crime, for instance. The only purpose of possessing cocaine is using cocaine (other than selling or trafficking or whatever, but that can be done with anything); thus, since using cocaine is illegal, possessing it is illegal. Why doesn't the same logic apply to these types of guns?

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Hiryuu

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Posted on 06-28-10 06:43:51 PM (last edited by Hiryuu at 06-28-10 03:44 PM) Link | Quote
Originally posted by Terra
My point is, if murder is illegal, why should possession of a device whose sole intended purpose is to commit an act of murder be legal?


Because, legal or not, people will still get them. If you don't give people that are law-abiding the right to defend themselves against those that would go around the law to get what they want...how are they going to defend themselves...with pepper spray?

By the by, it's SOLE purpose was supposed to be protection. Not murder. A little cognitive dissonance on your part.
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Posted on 06-28-10 06:49:22 PM (last edited by Orlandu at 06-28-10 03:50 PM) Link | Quote
Originally posted by Terra
My point is, if murder is illegal, why should possession of a device whose sole intended purpose is to commit an act of murder be legal?


Hunting, skeet shooting, self defense, slow motion. All uses for guns other than murder. I'm not a gun toter, but I agree that people do have a right to own a gun as long as that right is available to everyone. If you abuse that right or do anything that would not make you a sound owner of a weapon, then that right is revoked. Like anything else.

Drinking alcohol is not illegal, but driving after you do is. Many things have multiple functions or uses. Unfortunately, some of those can be bad or malicious. It doesn't make that thing bad in and of itself.

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Posted on 06-28-10 06:56:02 PM Link | Quote
Originally posted by Orlandu
Hunting, skeet shooting, self defense, slow motion. All uses for guns other than murder. I'm not a gun toter, but I agree that people do have a right to own a gun as long as that right is available to everyone. If you abuse that right or do anything that would not make you a sound owner of a weapon, then that right is revoked. Like anything else.

Drinking alcohol is not illegal, but driving after you do is. Many things have multiple functions or uses. Unfortunately, some of those can be bad or malicious. It doesn't make that thing bad in and of itself.


I'm not a gun toter either, but I'm in a place where a lot of people own them. You seldom see shootings around here. At all. Maybe it's because that people realize that if they ever pulled a gun in public that people that conceal carry would likely go 'try it' at any given time? Not sure. The most I see for shootings around here is mostly hunting. And if guns aren't your choice...well there are other ways to take a deer out.

Let's take another example: go up to Chicago and shoot a gun and you won't hear many flinch. I'm kind of glad that I left Illinois, in that vein. It's so common up there and they're trying to push gun laws to make it to where it is illegal to have one when it won't change anything for the better but only make it works. The politics in places like that do not outweigh the people that control those areas. It's sad thuggery, really.
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Posted on 06-28-10 07:04:19 PM Link | Quote
Originally posted by Orlandu
Hunting, skeet shooting, self defense, slow motion.


Originally posted by Terra
Now, if you're sustenance hunting, or live in a rural area with the threat of dangerous wild animals, that's different, and there are different types of guns used against animals.


I avoid guns myself so I don't know much about it, but aren't there different types of guns? Like rifles can be used for hunting, but something like an AK-47 is pretty much only for murder?

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Posted on 06-28-10 07:12:59 PM Link | Quote
I forgot defending our country.

Yes, war is bad. But it has become part of our world. Thats why our soldiers have been trained to use their automatic weapons (like an AK-47 is) for defending themselves against or defeating the enemy. They're not committing murder just because its an automatic weapon. The intended purpose of gun creation is typically for defense. Using it for murder is an unintended purpose for a gun.

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Posted on 06-28-10 08:20:51 PM Link | Quote
IIRC the laws around here states that you're not allowed posses any sorts of firearm unless you have a license. In order to get a license from the state you need to apply for one stating your reasons for why you need a firearm. Also note that each license if for a specific type of firearm.

Also note that even if you use one at work (defence (swedish army), police, etc) you're not allowed to keep one at home or carry with you in public under non-work time. So as far as I know, the only people that have rifles at home are hunters.

And of course there will be guns on the black market, but don't you still think it's safer to prevent non civilians from having guns around? If people have it as their hobby (shooting range, etc) then fine, I don't really mind. But I really find it unnecessary for most people to own a firearm. :/

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Posted on 06-28-10 11:16:11 PM Link | Quote
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Metal_Man88's Post
Gun law, gun schlaw, people around here just get illegal guns and kill one another and do drive-bys. It won't make much difference to make it legal for the law-abiding people to have them.

My only qualm is against assault rifles and other things, as nobody needs those except army soldiers and police in gang areas.

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Posted on 06-29-10 02:27:40 AM Link | Quote
I want to point something out debating gun laws now.

Remember the alcohol ban? Alcohol consumption went up over 400%.

Banning guns will just make them illegal, and then more people will get illegal guns to protect themselves from others who have them illegally! That was one of the backups for our debate we used to attempt to legalize pot in model parliament (The other parties somehow turned it around and we legalized prostitution and not pot I have no idea how)

Also, Terra, AK-47s are military guns. Guns used in domestic murders tend to be TMPs and handguns from what I understand.

Oh right. When we set up a gun registry here in Alberta, someone brought in a flamethrower, and another a rocket launcher. Either had them in case of a zombie apocalypse, or another reason.

For show.

I have an uncle who hangs guns on the wall. He's also got crossbows and stuff, all used for hunting.

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Posted on 06-29-10 02:33:18 AM Link | Quote
Originally posted by Tyty
Banning guns will just make them illegal, and then more people will get illegal guns to protect themselves from others who have them illegally!

This is not the case in other countries that never allowed guns in the first place.

Americans are such dumbasses that anything that could possibly be a threat (including a black person as president, OH MY GAAAAAAAAAAAD) means BUY MORE GUNS THEY"RE GONNA TAKE AWAY OUR GUNS MUST SHOOT NIGGERS.

Depressing yet true (and yes, this is despite gun laws becoming massively less restrictive, even before this absurd fucking ruling).


Oh right. When we set up a gun registry here in Alberta, someone brought in a flamethrower, and another a rocket launcher. Either had them in case of a zombie apocalypse, or another reason.

For show.

I have an uncle who hangs guns on the wall. He's also got crossbows and stuff, all used for hunting.

You guys miss the obvious point, that making guns easier to get means that people who really shouldn't have them can get them EASIER, and worse, LEGALLY.

Fuck the "only outlaws will have guns" shit. What fucking difference does it make if that kind of shit can be bought legally?


Another fucking retarded decision by the same bunch of retards that brought the previous corporations-as-people ruling that lets them dump as much into election funds as they want. Fuck.

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Posted on 06-29-10 02:38:30 AM Link | Quote
I'm not saying "ABOLISH GUN LAWS LOL" you know. I was arguing against "BAN ALL GUNS LOL"

Both are dumb ideas that would just lead to idiocy.

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Posted on 06-29-10 07:58:31 AM Link | Quote
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Metal_Man88's Post
Unfortunately, the Supreme Court is currently the Supreme Idiocy, showing the superiority of idiocy over the land.

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Posted on 06-29-10 03:40:30 PM Link | Quote
Freedom by gunfire. Good choice. /sarcasm

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Posted on 06-29-10 03:45:44 PM Link | Quote
If the choice were really so simple, I'm sure it would have been resolved by now. Then again, there have been simpler issues that have taken a good amount of time to fix... or not fix.

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Jul - News - Supreme Court: Gun possession is fundamental to American freedom New poll - New thread - New reply


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line 605 column 1433 - Warning: discarding unexpected <z>
line 605 column 1445 - Warning: discarding unexpected </z>
line 607 column 1461 - Error: <z> is not recognized!
line 607 column 1461 - Warning: discarding unexpected <z>
line 607 column 1469 - Warning: discarding unexpected </z>
line 611 column 2519 - Warning: discarding unexpected </td>
line 614 column 9 - Warning: <div> isn't allowed in <table> elements
line 152 column 17 - Info: <table> previously mentioned
line 616 column 9 - Warning: missing <tr>
line 634 column 13 - Warning: missing <tr>
line 635 column 102 - Warning: unescaped & or unknown entity "&postid"
line 637 column 74 - Warning: <link> isn't allowed in <td> elements
line 637 column 9 - Info: <td> previously mentioned
line 650 column 1227 - Warning: discarding unexpected </ze>
line 651 column 1291 - Warning: discarding unexpected </ze>
line 654 column 9 - Warning: <div> isn't allowed in <table> elements
line 152 column 17 - Info: <table> previously mentioned
line 656 column 9 - Warning: missing <tr>
line 674 column 13 - Warning: missing <tr>
line 675 column 102 - Warning: unescaped & or unknown entity "&postid"
line 677 column 243 - Warning: missing <tr>
line 677 column 491 - Warning: missing <tr>
line 690 column 1692 - Warning: missing </i> before </td>
line 698 column 9 - Warning: <div> isn't allowed in <table> elements
line 152 column 17 - Info: <table> previously mentioned
line 700 column 9 - Warning: missing <tr>
line 718 column 13 - Warning: missing <tr>
line 719 column 102 - Warning: unescaped & or unknown entity "&postid"
line 721 column 74 - Warning: <link> isn't allowed in <td> elements
line 721 column 9 - Info: <td> previously mentioned
line 724 column 444 - Warning: discarding unexpected </ze>
line 725 column 508 - Warning: discarding unexpected </ze>
line 728 column 9 - Warning: <div> isn't allowed in <table> elements
line 152 column 17 - Info: <table> previously mentioned
line 730 column 9 - Warning: missing <tr>
line 748 column 13 - Warning: missing <tr>
line 749 column 102 - Warning: unescaped & or unknown entity "&postid"
line 751 column 74 - Warning: <style> isn't allowed in <td> elements
line 751 column 9 - Info: <td> previously mentioned
line 751 column 1365 - Error: <z> is not recognized!
line 751 column 1365 - Warning: discarding unexpected <z>
line 751 column 1377 - Warning: discarding unexpected </z>
line 753 column 1409 - Error: <z> is not recognized!
Tidy found 454 warnings and 8 errors! Not all warnings/errors were shown.

The alt attribute should be used to give a short description
of an image; longer descriptions should be given with the
longdesc attribute which takes a URL linked to the description.
These measures are needed for people using non-graphical browsers.

For further advice on how to make your pages accessible
see http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL.
You are recommended to use CSS to specify the font and
properties such as its size and color. This will reduce
the size of HTML files and make them easier to maintain
compared with using <FONT> elements.

You are recommended to use CSS to control line wrapping.
Use "white-space: nowrap" to inhibit wrapping in place
of inserting <NOBR>...</NOBR> into the markup.

About HTML Tidy: https://github.com/htacg/tidy-html5
Bug reports and comments: https://github.com/htacg/tidy-html5/issues
Official mailing list: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-htacg/
Latest HTML specification: http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec-author-view/
Validate your HTML documents: http://validator.w3.org/nu/
Lobby your company to join the W3C: http://www.w3.org/Consortium

Do you speak a language other than English, or a different variant of
English? Consider helping us to localize HTML Tidy. For details please see
https://github.com/htacg/tidy-html5/blob/master/README/LOCALIZE.md