Jul -- Gaming: Difficulty in Games & Hardest Games Ever

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Posted on 06-24-10 08:37:25 PM

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Supakitsune

Originally posted by RahanAkero
Thermonuclear warfare. The only winning move is not to play. (Stolen BLATANTLY from Xk.)

Isn't that from WarGames anyway?

Originally posted by Higsby
Super Mario Galaxy (1 & 2) are probably two of the games that anger me the most, they're way more linear than 64 and Sunshine and you don't even have to look for secret stars/shines as there's pretty much a yellow brick road that leads you right to every one.

Um.
Have you ever even TRIED getting all the Comet Stars and Green Stars? Let alone collecting them as Luigi (at least for Galaxy 1)?

There's loads, LOADS of challenge to those. And you WILL find yourself trying again over and over.
Hell, I'd say both Galaxy games are a fair bit more challenging than Sunshine, and even somewhat more challenging than most of SM64.

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Posted on 06-24-10 08:50:41 PM

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Originally posted by Supakitsune
Originally posted by RahanAkero
Thermonuclear warfare. The only winning move is not to play. (Stolen BLATANTLY from Xk.)
Isn't that from WarGames anyway?

Yes, but the application of it to this thread was my idea, moments before going to bed

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Posted on 06-24-10 10:05:55 PM (last edited by Higsby at 06-24-10 07:08 PM)

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Originally posted by Supakitsune
Originally posted by Higsby
Super Mario Galaxy (1 & 2) are probably two of the games that anger me the most, they're way more linear than 64 and Sunshine and you don't even have to look for secret stars/shines as there's pretty much a yellow brick road that leads you right to every one.
Um.
Have you ever even TRIED getting all the Comet Stars and Green Stars? Let alone collecting them as Luigi (at least for Galaxy 1)?

There's loads, LOADS of challenge to those. And you WILL find yourself trying again over and over.
Hell, I'd say both Galaxy games are a fair bit more challenging than Sunshine, and even somewhat more challenging than most of SM64.

Yep I've done that. The comet starts weren't hard to find, you just went to a galaxy when the comet was there and then you had to get one of the exact same stars again but this time with an additional challenge added to it, I would have rather had completely new stars to find and again, ones that you weren't just lead straight to. The green stars were alright but the element of having to try and find them was kind of ruined when you received a letter from Luigi telling you almost exactly where they are (it's not like there are many places to hide them when the levels are so linear). And I played through about 75% of the game with Luigi before I couldn't take it anymore and moved onto something more fun. Luigi's abilities made the game even easier than it was with Mario and the game wasn't different at all, I was just doing the exact same thing again that I had just done with Mario.

Super Mario 64 had castle secret stars and Sunshine had shines hidden around Delfino Plaza. They both also had rewards for collecting 100 coins in a stage which was always one of my favourite parts. You also had the freedom in a lot of cases to go and get a star/shine that wasn't the one for the mission that you selected, making the games even less linear. 64 had cap switches which lead to new areas becoming available in levels that you had already been to and Sunshine had the Fludd adapters. Sunshine even had blue coins which meant that even more exploration was required (Galaxy 2 has medals hidden in each stage which I must admit are a nice improvement). Galaxy took away all of these great things, sure there may be some back tracking required if a comet or new challenge shows up at a galaxy but that's about it. There's hardly exploration required which was my point from the beginning

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Posted on 06-24-10 10:26:56 PM (last edited by Lunaria at 06-24-10 07:27 PM)

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1. Per see, I don't think games are harder in the past or present. However, the games in the past where mainly only hard, for various different reasons. Today, you can get both hard and easy games, giving you a free option to buy the games you want. There are also games that tries to aim at being both easy and hard on the same time, a perfect example are the latest few megaman games.

Megaman 9 allowed you to save, yet it allowed you to ignore this function too. However, this is nothing new, unless you thought it was hard to write down passwords, frankly that's something I don't miss.
Megaman 10 added an easy mode. Most old time megaman fans think this is a fucking joke, yet I still think it's a good idea that the option is there for you. A game that gives more option to play style while still keeping the game intact is good. I mean, if you're a long time fan, you can feel free to ignore it.

Megaman Zero collection is the latest example that adds the option to play through all four of the zero games in one run but you start with the several reserve thanks and full health bar. (Double size from standard start in all games. I recall you can upgrade it in some of them)

Difficulty is a tricky subject though. I had a debate with someone I know a few days ago about what was "hard core" and we kinda went into and touched subjects about hard games too. He claimed that no modern game is hard core as they are too easy. I disagreed and asked what he defined hard core as. (In which he only gave game examples rather then defining it!

) His example of a hard core RPG is the very same that bitmap talked about earlier in this topic: Baulders Gate 2. After a long argument about RPGs (that I won't talk about here as it's unrelated to topic, mind you) he raged quitted for some reason.
But from what I had gathered, only games he found to be very difficult would be defined as hardcore.

I find that very ironic though, as what is hard and difficult is defined by the gamers, not the game. I'm very good at platform games as well as RPGs and solving interesting puzzles within games. Yet I'm horrible at space shooters and fighting games. Yet I know is not that I don't try hard enough, I have tried very hard at getting good at space shooters. Yet, for some reason I just can't get get good at it. Would that make games such as gradius 3 hard? Of course not, it's just me that suck at it, but that does not change the fact that it is indeed hard for me. I can speed run and sequence break the hell out of super metroid and metroid prime, but that does not change the fact that I have meet and talked to people who think both titles are hard as fuck.

Sure, some people might say that freaking pokemon mystery dungeon is not as hard as, say, dungeon crawl stone soup. I would reply right away and say that they don't know what they are talking about. The first title might have a story mode with easier dungeons earlier on to apply more the, you know, "pokemon" in the title. But that does not change the fact that some later dungeons are just as brutal, if not more, then stone soup. Though, MD titles are a bit more simplified when it comes to dungeon design, but that's a design choice that they wanted to keep running in the series.

Another example is the zelda series. I have beaten every single game in the series beside four, actually, make that three as I did just recently beat zelda 1. The titles are as following: Zelda 2, phantom hourglass and spirit tracks. PH, I picked up and start playing, then I threw in the trash can. A few months later I picked it up again and played some more only to throw it in the trash can again, I just hated the content of that game. Spirit tracks is a great game that I would have been done with a long time ago if it where not for the save file corruption I had. HAVE FUN BEATING ABOUT 80% OF THE GAME ALL OVER AGAIN IF YOU WANT TO SEE THE ENDING! Yeah, no thanks. (I will do it some time though.) Then there is the infamous zelda 2. It's extremely hard (even for a platforming game) but, I think I could deal with that. The issue for me is that it just don't feel like a zelda game for me. (Keep in mind that alttp was my first zelda game)
Now a common complain I keep hearing is that the series keeps getting easier and easier. Frankly, I think that's quite a bit from the truth. The combat of the games have been easier and easier it felt like for me. But even since I learned how to use the targeting system in OoT (then mastered in MM) I have had no issues dealing with most enemies. (Beside those pesky ice kees) Yet, the combat have been upgraded more and more. In WW we learned the roll back slice as well as the head attack. In TP we get to use them freely on any enemy that can take more then one hit. I find it quite fun to be able to utilize more then basic attacks, yet even without I would have no issues dealing with anything in TP as I'm already so used to the basic system the game uses. I don't think it's the combat that got easier, it's more like I'm so experienced at it that it's easy for me.
They also keeps adding new items and such to make new puzzles for the series. I feel it's good that they try and keep things fresh, but if you have once learned how they do puzzles in the zelda series, you won't have any issues dealing with any new ones, even if you have to use new items.

I'm not quite sure what I wanted to say with this whole type up, but my point kinda is that games today are not necessarily harder then those of the past, you just have more options on what you want to play. There are some things that I would say is not real difficulty though. Sure some new games have this too, but it's more relevant for older games, from what I know.

2. I replied on facebook and said bullet hell games quite hastily, in retrospect I don't think that's quite unfair. The thing is, I have not really played any game that I feel fit into this role. I tried IWTBTG, sure it was hard and such, and I know how to beat it, it's just that I lack the ~~skill~~ patience to do so.

I just don't think it deserves the crown as the hardest game of all time, and I would go so far and say that I'm not qualified to pick out one/more as the hardest games of all time, as I don't know any that fits.

3. If it was not clear from above, yes. For most games I don't use difficulty options much, I just pick the one I like and that's it. But for games I really love it's great to be given the option to play a bit harder the next time. Not to mention the times where there is extra modes that really adds some new twists to the gameplay. Giving you a character with another type of play style/moves/etc and sends you off on a quest with slightly harder monsters/etc is a great thing that more games needs to have. But regardless, more modes to play the games in gives the player more options, therefor it's good.

Now to the part where I want to quote people!

Originally posted by HyperHacker
except for one level in the middle that's significantly harder than anything else in the game.

Boost guardian!

(Metroid Prime 2 Echos)

Originally posted by Supakitsune
Um.
Have you ever even TRIED getting all the Comet Stars and Green Stars? Let alone collecting them as Luigi (at least for Galaxy 1)?

There's loads, LOADS of challenge to those. And you WILL find yourself trying again over and over.
Hell, I'd say both Galaxy games are a fair bit more challenging than Sunshine, and even somewhat more challenging than most of SM64.

Gonna have to agree with this. Galaxy was not really easier then any other 3D mario games, the only change is that they hand you so many god damn 1-ups that you never get a game over, I still die just as much though.

Yet Higsby has a point too that I have to agree with. It angers me to no end that they made both of these games so much more linear then the other 3D mario games. You always have a set path in levels and you can't (most of the times) take more then one star on the same instance of the level. I thought they would strive away from this in the sequel, (they did hint with the full coded but unused red star from the first game) sadly, they never did.

Still though, you still have the same moves and face around the same challenges as the other 3D mario games.

note: this post was started a good while before the last few posts, etc.

Note 2: aaaaaaaa wall of text satastastastastastastastastsatas (I might have made some mistakes in all the typing)

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Posted on 06-25-10 01:55:58 AM

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Megaman? Really?

I can understand Ninja Gaiden. But come on

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Posted on 06-25-10 02:45:02 AM

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2. The game that nobody has ever beaten. I know a guy who plays Battletoads through completely a few times a day, so that's out. My brother is like the fifth-fastest IWBTG boss runner, not to mention the stupendous amounts of Let's Plays of it, so that's out too. Anything that is unbeatable by design is disqualified, and anything related to romhacking is also disqualified.

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Posted on 06-25-10 02:59:41 AM

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Originally posted by Bitmap
Megaman? Really?

I can understand Ninja Gaiden. But come on

This. Also, the Super Star Wars series on the SNES on anything harder than Brave. Jesus Christ.

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Posted on 06-25-10 03:56:59 AM

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I don't know why I have a problem with A Boy and His Blob being considered a hard game. It is at first, but once beaten it's a very easy game to beat afterwards. Sort of like how Zelda 2 is very difficult at first, but it's fairly easy once beaten.

Now, I'm going to completely turn around and say that Starfox for the SNES is one of the hardest games. Don't get me wrong. The first two routes are easy. It's route 3 that cranks up the difficulty to 11, especially near the end of the game.

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Posted on 06-25-10 06:21:11 AM

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Who said La-Mulana?

The only thing about that game was Hell temple. THAT was hard. Unless you know how to get through it.

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Posted on 06-25-10 07:03:08 AM (last edited by Zero One at 06-25-10 04:03 AM)

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Super Mario Galaxy 1 was pretty challenging with the likes of Bouldergheist Daredevil Run. Hell, I only just figured out an easy way to do it on the World S Boss Daredevil run from Super Mario Galaxy 2. Granted, getting 242 stars on Galaxy was quite easy, but you do have to factor in the fact that it is only easy compared to Galaxy 2, where the Comet challenges are much harder and that you have to find 120 green stars. And that isn't even mentioning the last two super challenges you unlock at 240 stars. I used to think that Super Mario Sunshine was really hard a few years ago. As such, I stopped playing it and it was eventually sold later that year. I managed to pick up another copy a few weeks ago, sat down, played it and finished it within 3 days.

On the subject of Mega Man, yeah, that one was pretty hard for me. As soon as I figured that going for Bomb Man first was the best choice, I got pretty far. The problem was, I couldn't get past the Yellow Demon without cheat codes or the pause/unpause glitch and then the Copy Megaman killed me. I beat Dr. Wily at the end, but because I cheated, I don't consider it as beaten. MM2 was the first Mega Man I completed (on Difficult while I'm at it). I got up to the 3rd or 4th Doc Robot on MM3 but couldn't get past. Now I can barely get past the regular boss stages. 4, 5 and 6 were beaten, but 7 wasn't because I can't seem to ever defeat Dr. Wily at the end. I nearly finished 8, but stopped playing for some reason. 9 was fun, although I maxed out E-Tanks and M-Tanks for the last boss battle and some of the stages (*cough*Jewel Man*cough*) took ages to get past, until I figured out that going for Splash Woman first was the easiest route. With 10, I managed to finish it one my first go.

For more modern games, I find that Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 was pretty hard, especially towards the end. The problem with that game is that nothing is randomized. If you die enough times then you begin to memorise enemy locations and kill them before they appear, so the difficulty gets shot down at that point.

Even though COD6 was difficult, similar items aren't. For example, Ratchet & Clank: A Crack in Time. Even playing on the hardest difficult (excluding Challenge Mode) was easy to do and didn't pose much of a challenge.

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Posted on 06-25-10 01:49:42 PM

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	I'm going to start working on this article tonight or tomorrow. Does anyone mind if I quote some of these replies in it? ____________________

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Posted on 06-25-10 03:29:35 PM

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I have to agree with you Zero one, Bouldergheist Daredevil Run was a fucking nightmare, lava spire is much easier! The 120 green stars is a great idea, in theory. But due to the linearity of most levels it's not that fun to look for them. Say you have 3 green stars hidden in mario sunshines levels, that's much harder to find (and more fun/rewarding) due to the more exploration based gameplay. Though, the set up in galaxy 2 is not bad per see, or any less hard in terms of what tricks you have to pull off. It's just that the linearity limits the game for the player, having more launch stars around the levels to take you back to other planets or planets you have not been on but are not on straight path towards the star would do a lot to the gamplay. The same thing could also be done by using the freaking red star power up. :/

Anya: I don't mind at all. =)

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Posted on 06-25-10 03:39:13 PM

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Giving out the Flying powerup would kind of break almost the entire game. You could fly right past everything straight for the star or boss planet.

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Posted on 06-25-10 03:45:18 PM

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	Originally posted by Anya I'm going to start working on this article tonight or tomorrow. Does anyone mind if I quote some of these replies in it? Yes, you can quote this reply... ____________________

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Posted on 06-25-10 03:53:32 PM

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Originally posted by Peardian
Giving out the Flying powerup would kind of break almost the entire game. You could fly right past everything straight for the star or boss planet.

I would say it could have been added once you already got all starts beside the hidden once in a level, etc. Or if used in the main game, design around it. Of course it would be game breaking to just throw it in at the start of every level, but that's not what I meant.

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Posted on 06-25-10 03:56:51 PM

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Originally posted by Anya
I'm going to start working on this article tonight or tomorrow. Does anyone mind if I quote some of these replies in it?

Of course I don't mind. My wall of text is yours to command.

Yeah the red star in Galaxy 1 was such a tease, but at the same time kind of unsatisfying for a flight mechanic. Just point and go makes the travel time consist of waiting to get there. On the other hand, flying in Super Mario World requires you to do something to keep flying, but it's easy and boring. There's got to be a way of making you work for it that doesn't feel like a hoop to jump through, but actually maybe not, that could be why there's no flying powerup in the last several Mario games.

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Posted on 06-25-10 06:19:06 PM

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I wish not to have any of my quotes in your article. Thanks.

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Posted on 06-25-10 09:55:36 PM

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06-25-10 04:55:36 PM
Post #3438

Originally posted by Anya
I'm going to start working on this article tonight or tomorrow. Does anyone mind if I quote some of these replies in it?

I don't.

Originally posted by Miasmir
Yeah the red star in Galaxy 1 was such a tease, but at the same time kind of unsatisfying for a flight mechanic. Just point and go makes the travel time consist of waiting to get there. On the other hand, flying in Super Mario World requires you to do something to keep flying, but it's easy and boring. There's got to be a way of making you work for it that doesn't feel like a hoop to jump through, but actually maybe not, that could be why there's no flying powerup in the last several Mario games.

The Wing Cap was alright. Time limited, found only in certain places (but not terribly rare), and you really had to launch from a cannon or high cliff to get anywhere; you couldn't really gain much height.

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Posted on 06-25-10 10:29:22 PM

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Originally posted by Anya
I'm going to start working on this article tonight or tomorrow. Does anyone mind if I quote some of these replies in it?

I don't mind. Don't think I said anything worth quoting but you can use whatever nonsense I said if need be.

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