Originally posted by MikaelThere could be 10-yr old kids interested in making Mario levels.
Yes my 9 years old son makes level design using this greate editor ;-)
And he can't even read/understand much english - of cause I help him, but he can make almost any level designy him self.
I do agree that something could be more userfriendly, but I rather live with less userfriendly and more functions...
More functions rather than userfriendly? Well the Wii version of NSMB is going to be HUGE so, to learn all the parts of that game would be exhausting ESPECIALLY if the editor for that one becomes ungainly.
It should be an absolute no-brainer to place an ordinary enemy in a level at this point, after so many editor updates, not a damn project "Ok let's see, first I need to look up the sprite, which number OH THERE... next, what sprite data is there I want to use..." and so forth, and repeat this wasted househould job when it could simply be preset and allow kids to edit by themselves quicker. But the hackers got too blowned up balls and they're about to explode, and they consider efficiency to be "magic".
Mario is just a game and not worth a third of my life, got other things to spend time on too you know, and this comes from a guy who was almost bullied at school for being a Mario fan. Sure, I can learn alot of things and prepared to do the research that is required, but I'm simply not going to waste that amount time and energy on repeadetly household work. The copy/paste function in the latest updates is a big, crucial success.
dirbaio
For future reference, "Responsible disclosure" isn't "acting like a douche about an exploit and demanding compensation".
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For now, i can tell that 3d models arent editable. There are tools out there that barely let you view DS's 3D models, sometimes with bad textures and sometimes with everything bad. Right now nobody knows fully the format of ds's 3d models, that's why the guy that is developing the model viewer is having so much trouble. I doubt i could implement something like a 3d model importer / exporter. Maybe in the far future, when the models are better known (but i doubt it, as there havent been any advances on them lately)
What can be changed probably, and i'm working on it right now (you can see it in the editor development thread) is editing the textures of 3d models. That way you would be able to change a grassland world map into a forest world map for example, but not changing the paths or the shape. sorry.
I know it is frustrating but 3d stuff is hard to deal with, specially if you have no specifications on the format youre working with.
I hope i made everything clear here.
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Originally posted by MikaelMore functions rather than userfriendly? Well the Wii version of NSMB is going to be HUGE so, to learn all the parts of that game would be exhausting ESPECIALLY if the editor for that one becomes ungainly.
It should be an absolute no-brainer to place an ordinary enemy in a level at this point, after so many editor updates, not a damn project "Ok let's see, first I need to look up the sprite, which number OH THERE... next, what sprite data is there I want to use..." and so forth, and repeat this wasted househould job when it could simply be preset and allow kids to edit by themselves quicker. But the hackers got too blowned up balls and they're about to explode, and they consider efficiency to be "magic".
Mario is just a game and not worth a third of my life, got other things to spend time on too you know, and this comes from a guy who was almost bullied at school for being a Mario fan. Sure, I can learn alot of things and prepared to do the research that is required, but I'm simply not going to waste that amount time and energy on repeadetly household work. The copy/paste function in the latest updates is a big, crucial success.
I think you're expecting way too much. The original version of this editor was written by a 14 year old kid in his free time, and is now being worked on and updated by Dirbaio.
This was the first usable level editor I ever wrote. Dirbaio has been doing a great job updating it and making it better with features like multiple selection and such, but there's only so far it can go right now.
Could the current editor be better? Definitely. But is it usable right now? Yes.
The Wii editor has an entirely new interface which works far better - but it'd be impossible to backport it to the DS editor because they're both written in completely different programming languages.
If you really want to see it improve, then insulting us and going on about how we have "too blowned up balls" won't make us do whatever you want. Instead, be polite, think of interface suggestions that would make it better and post them in the stickied Editor Development thread.
____________________
|03:42:37| @Sukasa: Ikachan is a butt
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Hacking Tools: NSMB Editor 5 · Nitro / NARC Explorer
Current Project: Reggie! - NSMBWii Level Editor
Originally posted by dirbaiowow. what a big discussion.
For now, i can tell that 3d models arent editable. There are tools out there that barely let you view DS's 3D models, sometimes with bad textures and sometimes with everything bad. Right now nobody knows fully the format of ds's 3d models, that's why the guy that is developing the model viewer is having so much trouble. I doubt i could implement something like a 3d model importer / exporter. Maybe in the far future, when the models are better known (but i doubt it, as there havent been any advances on them lately)
What can be changed probably, and i'm working on it right now (you can see it in the editor development thread) is editing the textures of 3d models. That way you would be able to change a grassland world map into a forest world map for example, but not changing the paths or the shape. sorry.
I know it is frustrating but 3d stuff is hard to deal with, specially if you have no specifications on the format youre working with.
I hope i made everything clear here.
You did! Brilliant Dirbaio! And keep up that work, I had a hunch the situation looked like this in the first place. Are you saying there's a possibility YOU can learn how to handle the 3D Models and there's no necessarity to get somebody else involved in it? Then it might be a question of time. (If I could boost that research for you I would)
To sum up what I've read here alone, dirbaio knows how to switch the scenery theme of a map overworld and Treeki knows how to change path directions on it. Don't be doubtful or sorry about this as it is great progress.
"If you really want to see it improve, then insulting us and going on about how we have "too blowned up balls" won't make us do whatever you want. Instead, be polite, think of interface suggestions that would make it better and post them in the stickied Editor Development thread."
But I was polite, I said "gee I tried to be polite here" but Garmichael addressed me with a ballistic speech. Lol. I said you deserved standing ovations. Why is it that you misinterpret things in a negative way and fail to see the positive tone I'm trying to bring? Don't tell me that I'm "insulting" you when I've done the opposite! Like I said, lack of social codes here.
As for the development thread, go check on it Treeki before you tell me what I've already done. And lay off the personal tone. There's no NEED for it, as you said yourself.
well, Treeki doesnt know fully how to change paths neither.
Paths consist in some table somewhere, and a NSBCA (3d animation) file that contains all the animations Mario does whan travelling from one point to another. Its quite useless because most of the time it only walks but for example in world 3 it jumps from the beach to the land.
This is the bad thing: NSBCA files are totally (or nearly) unknown.
Originally posted by dirbaiowell, Treeki doesnt know fully how to change paths neither.
Paths consist in some table somewhere, and a NSBCA (3d animation) file that contains all the animations Mario does whan travelling from one point to another. Its quite useless because most of the time it only walks but for example in world 3 it jumps from the beach to the land.
This is the bad thing: NSBCA files are totally (or nearly) unknown.
What do you mean though. Are you saying the kind of files you need to comprehend are unknown to just YOU, or are they unknown to most/all hackers? And are you saying it's a bad thing it's unknown because you can't learn how to read them? You need more tools and more advanced programs to interpret NSBCA? And finding these programs, purchase them, handle them, is a "maybe"?
The bad things in itself isn't what obstacle you have ahead, right.
Originally posted by MikaelWhat do you mean though. Are you saying the kind of files you need to comprehend are unknown to just YOU, or are they unknown to most/all hackers? And are you saying it's a bad thing it's unknown because you can't learn how to read them? You need more tools and more advanced programs to interpret NSBCA? And finding these programs, purchase them, handle them, is a "maybe"?
The bad things in itself isn't what obstacle you have ahead, right.
Nintendo uses their own custom formats for everything. There are some formats (like NSMB's levels and tilesets) which are only used in one game - and others (like SDAT, NSBMD, etc) which are used in many Nintendo-developed games.
The issue is that there isn't any documentation available. For some formats, people have figured them out and documented them. Others are poorly documented (like NSBMD, the model format) - or even totally unknown.
You make it sound easy, when in reality, it's not. I just opened the NSBCA file for world 1 in a hex editor and took a screenshot: http://treeki.shacknet.nu/bca_hex.png - all this data means something to the game, but we know nothing about how it's laid out or how it works. And due to its nature, 3D stuff is far harder to both understand and edit than 2D.
You can't "purchase a program" which can do it - Nintendo's private devkit is the only thing that can create and edit NSBCA files, and we don't have that. And we can't legally distribute anything from it (or even obtain it without being a developer) which makes using it for ROM hacking purposes pointless.
____________________
|03:42:37| @Sukasa: Ikachan is a butt
|03:42:41| +Ikachan: Sukasa: Your face is ~= to a butt.
Hacking Tools: NSMB Editor 5 · Nitro / NARC Explorer
Current Project: Reggie! - NSMBWii Level Editor
Originally posted by TreekiNintendo uses their own custom formats for everything. There are some formats (like NSMB's levels and tilesets) which are only used in one game - and others (like SDAT, NSBMD, etc) which are used in many Nintendo-developed games.
The issue is that there isn't any documentation available. For some formats, people have figured them out and documented them. Others are poorly documented (like NSBMD, the model format) - or even totally unknown.
You make it sound easy, when in reality, it's not. I just opened the NSBCA file for world 1 in a hex editor and took a screenshot: http://treeki.shacknet.nu/bca_hex.png - all this data means something to the game, but we know nothing about how it's laid out or how it works. And due to its nature, 3D stuff is far harder to both understand and edit than 2D.
You can't "purchase a program" which can do it - Nintendo's private devkit is the only thing that can create and edit NSBCA files, and we don't have that. And we can't legally distribute anything from it (or even obtain it without being a developer) which makes using it for ROM hacking purposes pointless.
I see. Thanks for that understandable, reasonable explanation.
I suppose you are keeping pace with whatever exclusively new technology there is in hacking industry.
NSMB Wii uses the same model/sound/etc formats as games like Brawl which have been hacked to death, so we can build upon their documentation. The game itself is also built differently.
For example, adding/removing areas from levels is unfeasible in NSMB DS because the level and area numbers are all hardcoded into the game binary. Adding completely new levels would be even worse.
In NSMBWii, adding/removing areas is as simple as modifying the level file (4 is the max). Adding new levels just involves changing the level number you enter from the world map - the game is full of unused slots in every world.
I just found my old docs about the map data in NSMB DS - it's not simple at all. The main map model (containing the scenery/terrain/etc) is in the w#.nsbmd files. The file containing Mario's movement for each path is in the w#_move.nsbca files. These two are the easier bits, since they can eventually be modified once we find out the formats.
The harder bit is the actual path layout itself - it's all embedded into the compressed overlay files (ID 18) along with the world map code. It cannot be easily modified at all - these files contain both code and data, so you can't change the size of these files without horribly breaking the game. Guess what makes it even better? Due to the way it's structured, the data will be different in each game region.
tl;dr: Don't expect fully hackable world maps to be possible for a long, long time (if ever).
____________________
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Hacking Tools: NSMB Editor 5 · Nitro / NARC Explorer
Current Project: Reggie! - NSMBWii Level Editor
Originally posted by TreekiNSMB Wii uses the same model/sound/etc formats as games like Brawl which have been hacked to death, so we can build upon their documentation. The game itself is also built differently.
For example, adding/removing areas from levels is unfeasible in NSMB DS because the level and area numbers are all hardcoded into the game binary. Adding completely new levels would be even worse.
In NSMBWii, adding/removing areas is as simple as modifying the level file (4 is the max). Adding new levels just involves changing the level number you enter from the world map - the game is full of unused slots in every world.
I just found my old docs about the map data in NSMB DS - it's not simple at all. The main map model (containing the scenery/terrain/etc) is in the w#.nsbmd files. The file containing Mario's movement for each path is in the w#_move.nsbca files. These two are the easier bits, since they can eventually be modified once we find out the formats.
The harder bit is the actual path layout itself - it's all embedded into the compressed overlay files (ID 18) along with the world map code. It cannot be easily modified at all - these files contain both code and data, so you can't change the size of these files without horribly breaking the game. Guess what makes it even better? Due to the way it's structured, the data will be different in each game region.
tl;dr: Don't expect fully hackable world maps to be possible for a long, long time (if ever).
Well that does make sense (mostly) but I seem to get different answers and different stories about why you can't make the overworld map everytime I ask, I must say. According to you, the problem isn't the 3D hacking and modeling. The problem is now that the codes are embedded in such a way that you can't touch them, that separates NSMB DS from other products.
Is that because there is not yet a technology developed to be able to do that (Nintendo's private devkit is the only thing that can create and edit NSBCA files)? Or is the situation as such, that NSMB DS applies NSBCA files that NSMBWii somehow doesn't and that is the only reason you can hack the Wii version more? Is there a certain WAY of programming 3D? Are you able to program the overworlds in the Wii version or not?
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Originally posted by MikaelWell that does make sense (mostly) but I seem to get different answers and different stories about why you can't make the overworld map everytime I ask, I must say. According to you, the problem isn't the 3D hacking and modeling. The problem is now that the codes are embedded in such a way that you can't touch them, that separates NSMB DS from other products.
Both of these are problems - but modifying the code is the biggest issue. Eventually, we'll probably be able to figure out how to edit the NSBMD/NSBCA files which contain the 3D data - but we don't have a way to expand the code files.
Originally posted by MikaelIs that because there is not yet a technology developed to be able to do that (Nintendo's private devkit is the only thing that can create and edit NSBCA files)?
Yes and no. Basically, keep in mind that the only thing the NSBCA files contain is a list of positions that Mario will move along on a specified path.
The info for the amount of paths/points, the level number at a specific location, the paths branching off a specific point etc is all part of the code.
Originally posted by MikaelOr is the situation as such, that NSMB DS applies NSBCA files that NSMBWii somehow doesn't and that is the only reason you can hack the Wii version more? Is there a certain WAY of programming 3D? Are you able to program the overworlds in the Wii version or not?
The DS and the Wii both use different formats. The Wii is more flexible (because of all the extra processing power) and there is far more info on the 3D formats because of games like Brawl which have had huge amounts of progress made on them.
____________________
|03:42:37| @Sukasa: Ikachan is a butt
|03:42:41| +Ikachan: Sukasa: Your face is ~= to a butt.
Hacking Tools: NSMB Editor 5 · Nitro / NARC Explorer
Current Project: Reggie! - NSMBWii Level Editor
So you're saying that you have obstacles with the programming language of the DS at this point because there's not enough gathered documentation on it. Roger.
"Eventually, we'll probably be able to figure out how to edit the NSBMD/NSBCA files which contain the 3D data - but we don't have a way to expand the code files. "
Like I said, eventually you geniuses will figure it out. I don't understand what it means with expanding the code files though. See, now there's ANOTHER new answer! So tell me then, what does it mean with *expanding* them and how do you lack a way of it?
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Originally posted by MikaelI don't understand what it means with expanding the code files though. See, now there's ANOTHER new answer! So tell me then, what does it mean with *expanding* them and how do you lack a way of it?
Basically: when Nintendo made this game, they coded everything in it using a programming language (most likely C or C++). The DS can't read the C/C++ code directly - they have a special program (a "compiler") that translates this code into data the DS can use, which is what's included in the game ROM (and where the data we need to change is contained).
The source code is easy to modify and can be made to do anything you want - hence why Nintendo uses it. But we don't have that. If we want to change something, we're stuck editing the raw data there. We can roughly figure out what it does and modify it; but it's far more complicated than the original code.
However, let me see how to explain this.. basically, the transformed version of this code is full of "links" to other parts. If we move anything around inside the code, these "links" will be broken and it won't work correctly at all.
You can modify things within it, but it's very limiting, and you're limited to however much space the original data uses. For example, there's a section which has a list of the amount of areas in each level. You can change the amount, but you can't change the size of that section - because the data located after it would have to be moved, and it would break the aforementioned "links".
Not sure if this is clear enough, but hopefully it will help.
____________________
|03:42:37| @Sukasa: Ikachan is a butt
|03:42:41| +Ikachan: Sukasa: Your face is ~= to a butt.
Hacking Tools: NSMB Editor 5 · Nitro / NARC Explorer
Current Project: Reggie! - NSMBWii Level Editor
"The DS can't read the C/C++ code directly - they have a special program that translates this code into data the DS can use, which is what's included in the game ROM (and where the data we need to change is contained)."
Thank you Treeki, first time I heard that aswell! There seems to pop up crucial causes for unfeasible projects the whole time when you put this into context. If you told me this initially I would of understood as for why editing certain code files, such as the ones concerning the map world, are not feasible. Of course, if they don't "give" you the compiler within the game ROM there's no chance for you to being with.
Source codes for DS will most likely become properly examined and documented just as the formats that are already well-knowned to hackers. That is, if I've understood you correctly, hackers didn't have access to the source codes for other Nintendo products (like Brawl) yet they are understandable today.
Originally posted by MikaelOf course, if they don't "give" you the compiler within the game ROM there's no chance for you to BEGIN with. *spelling error
You can't handle those codes without the compiler program. Basically, that is the issue narrowed down.
