Jul -- News: U.S. Health Care

Gabu

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Posted on 09-18-09 11:39:33 PM

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You mean don't want, right?

I'm actually in full support of single-payer. Not everything about it's going to be peachy, sure, but it's much better than risking $250K in hospital bills because insurance was unaffordable.

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Dryden

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Posted on 09-19-09 12:50:08 AM

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Social Security - Failing

United States Postal Service - Going Bankrupt

DMV - Do I need to say anything

Medicare - Failing

Medicade - Failing

VA - Failing (I know 5 retired soldiers I have asked)

Cash For Clunkers - Lasted 2 months before it went bankrupt

Welfare - Deep Trouble

I can go on but I will stop there.

After all these failures how can you possibly think that letting the government take care of health care is a good idea. Do you really want hospitals turning into the DMV?

Not to mention letting the government take control of health care has failed every it has been tried. Now I already know you are going to say "What about Canada or what about Great Britain."

Canada - I have several articles I can find for that show the Healthcare system is failing. One in particular was a doctors conference where they discussed how they could return to the old system. I have the article and I have many others about Canada thatI could share the links to.

Great Britain - If you want to wait months for surgery this is the place for you. They are also refusing life saving medicines for the elderly. I have that article as well.

I am not saying our current system is perfect. It has problems as well, but it is still better then anything out there. We can fix this without a socialist takeover of the whole system. No one is talking about tort reform? Why? Most of the high cost in the system is because of the cost of insurance the doctors have to purchase to protect themselves. There are many smaller things that can be done like allowing people to buy policies across state borders. This will create massive competition and drive rates down.

I have many links to articles and studies that will give you some more information but only if you want it.

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Posted on 09-19-09 01:40:04 AM

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Originally posted by Dryden
Social Security - Failing

Tax cuts from Bush's presidency have gutted taxed income going to Social Security. This also applies to Medicare, Medicaid, and many other projects, which had a great deal of their benefits cut. Do the research please. These programs had been running for many, many years without problems. Their failure only in recent years has a very, very clear cause.

United States Postal Service - Going Bankrupt

A loss during a recession (where mail volume is lowering) is not "going bankrupt".

DMV - Do I need to say anything

Yes, actually, unless you consider a long line for a non-time critical service to be OOH SCARY, when it has nothing to do with anything else. Man, those long lines at the grocery store are infuriating. With lines like that there's no way they could offer good service elsewhere! Oh wait.

VA - Failing (I know 5 retired soldiers I have asked)

Again, see the first point on the list.

Cash For Clunkers - Lasted 2 months before it went bankrupt

It was incredibly successful to the point they had to increase funding. It didn't go "bankrupt" at any point during its inception; it was projected to use more money than allocated, they allocated more money, and the program ended on a positive note of having created thousands of jobs and trashing thousands of inefficient cars. Not only that, but well over 50% of dealers have been paid, with the rest of the checks to dealerships still flowing.

Welfare - Deep Trouble

See point #1 again.

I can go on but I will stop there.
After all these failures how can you possibly think that letting the government take care of health care is a good idea. Do you really want hospitals turning into the DMV?

The DMV is not a life-critical situation, unless you're going to have a heart attack because the line has a few people in it.

Not to mention, we have many programs for other things that you conveniently neglect to mention. Scholarships? Federal student aid? There are more and more but listing them is just too much work given the rest of this.

Not to mention letting the government take control of health care has failed every it has been tried. Now I already know you are going to say "What about Canada or what about Great Britain."

This is absolutely hilarious, because we have several members from these "supposedly failing" countries that can very clearly state that it is not.

Canada - I have several articles I can find for that show the Healthcare system is failing. One in particular was a doctors conference where they discussed how they could return to the old system. I have the article and I have many others about Canada thatI could share the links to.

Colin, Kles, Acmlm, especially Kles

Great Britain - If you want to wait months for surgery this is the place for you. They are also refusing life saving medicines for the elderly. I have that article as well.

I have an article that says you're > derogatory term here<, but you'll have to take my word for it because I can't bother proving my point other than saying words.

I am not saying our current system is perfect. It has problems as well, but it is still better then anything out there.

Patently false.

We can fix this without a socialist takeover of the whole system.

SOCIALISM SOCIALISM SOCIALISM SOCIALISM SOCIALISM SOCIALISM SOCIALISM SOCIALISM SOCIALISM SOCIALISM SOCIALISM SOCIALISM
Please, get a new buzzword. There are thousands of posts out there that could cram that word right down your throat (public schools, public fire/police department, public utilities, public roads, government safety standards, etc, etc, etc) that I just

No one is talking about tort reform? Why? Most of the high cost in the system is because of the cost of insurance the doctors have to purchase to protect themselves. There are many smaller things that can be done like allowing people to buy policies across state borders. This will create massive competition and drive rates down.

Facts please.

I have many links to articles and studies that will give you some more information but only if you want it.

How did you ever guess.

Seriously, do the fucking research on some of this shit.

Also more lulz

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Posted on 09-19-09 01:48:16 AM

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On the DMV, I guess it's just here, but they are jacking up the prices to renew your license, big time.

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Dryden

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Posted on 09-19-09 02:08:16 AM (last edited by Anya at 09-18-09 11:14 PM)

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What?!?

I am not even going to begin speaking with someone who blames every problem we have on Bush. Now this has been happening for years and happened a long time ago.

I come on here for an honest debate. A rational debate. What do I get? Nothing but insults? I came here to test something and I believe I have.

First, I have done more research in the last 6 months then you have your entire life about government. Read a book called the "5,000 year leap" or "The Real George Washington, Ben Franklin, and Thomas Jefferson" . How about reading the constitution again. How about reading Thomas Pains common sense. Before you insult someone get to know them better.

Let me tell you something. I was an 11 year old big liberal. Save the whales, dolphins, and the earth. Then I changed when I started asking the major question "What if I am wrong?" I have asked that question ever day since. I voted for the (R) my whole life. I voted for Bush in 2004 because to this day I still believe he was better then that ass clown. But I hate Bush for different reasons. He betrayed my principles. He was for amnesty and then he betrayed Capitilism. At that moment he was dead to me. But around the same time I realized my own party had lost there way and I am now an independent. DC is rotting from the inside. It is a cauldron of corruption and bile. Everyone there cares nothing about you and me and only cares about relection and how the press portrays them. I trust no one in DC right now. But go ahead and call me all the names you want because I have been called them many times over. I have the facts behind me and calling names only proves my point. When in a debate someone throws a word like "Racist" around then they are a coward because they know they have lost the debate. Stop calling names and debate. Study the stuff below. Think.... If you don't believe it then so be it. But don't you see that debates like this is what DC doesn't want. Instead they hurl insults to throw you off. Think for yourself. If your a democrat then that's great. How can you read the facts and not be outraged. What happened to the Kennedy democrat's? We both love our country just ask this question. What if my side is right?

You want links. You got links.

(Updated & Organized)

Section# 1 UK Care
Section# 2 Canada Care
Section# 3 Info Concerning HR3200
Section# 4 The Constitutionality of Universal health care

Section# 1 UK Care
I don't want to see this stuff happening here in America!!!!!
'Cruel and neglectful' care of one million NHS patients exposed
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/6092658/Cruel-and-neglectful-care-of-one-million-NHS-patients-exposed.html

Patients died due to 'appalling care' at Staffordshire hospitals - Healthcare Commission
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/5006037/Patients-died-due-to-appalling-care-at-Staffordshire-hospitals---Healthcare-Commission.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/5820301/Patients-being-hurried-though-casualty-departments.html

Hospitals 'ignoring whistle blowing staff afraid for patient safety'
Question: How much more is being covered up if people are scared to come foreward or are just being ignored?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/5303435/Hospitals-ignoring-whistleblowing-staff-afraid-for-patient-safety.html

Woman gives birth on pavement 'after being refused ambulance'
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1207151/Woman-gives-birth-pavement-refused-ambulance.html

The babies born in hospital corridors: Bed shortage forces 4,000 mothers to give birth in lifts, offices and hospital toilets
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1209034/The-babies-born-hospital-corridors-Bed-shortage-forces-4-000-mothers-birth-lifts-offices-hospital-toilets.html

Sentenced to death on the NHS
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/6127514/Sentenced-to-death-on-the-NHS.html

Prisoners have a better diet than Health Service hospital patients, scientists warn
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1210109/Prisoners-better-diet-Health-Service-hospital-patients-scientists-warn.html

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Section# 2 Canada Care

Canadian Health Services Send Patients to U.S. Hospitals
http://www.breitbart.tv/canadian-health-services-send-patients-to-u-s-hospitals/
Question: Where will the Americans & Canadians go if we adopt there system?

Overhauling health-care system tops agenda at annual meeting of Canada's doctors: system Imploding!!!
http://www.google.com/hostednews/canadianpress/article/ALeqM5jbjzPEY0Y3bvRD335rGu_Z3KXoQw
Father of Canadian healthcare system now disowning it
http://hotair.com/archives/2008/06/26/father-of-candian-healthcare-system-now-disowning-it/

Thousands of surgeries may be cut in Metro Vancouver due to government underfunding, leaked paper
http://www.vancouversun.com/story_print.html?id=1878506&sponsor

Canadians visit U.S. to get health care Deal lets many go to Michigan hospitals
http://freep.com/article/20090820/BUSINESS06/908200420/1319/

When it comes to healthcare, the U.S., Britain and Canada are hurting
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-oe-klein7-2009apr07,0,3092824.story

The Ugly Truth About Canadian Health Care
http://www.city-journal.org/html/17_3_canadian_healthcare.html

The Top Ten Things People Believe About Canadian Health Care, But Shouldn't
http://www.heritage.org/research/healthcare/hl856.cfm

Canada's Medical Nightmare - by Robert J. Cihak, M.D. - Health Care News
http://www.heartland.org/policybot/results/15524/Canadas_Medical_Nightmare.html

Canadian Doctor Describes the Nightmare of Canada's Health Care System
http://wizbangblog.com/content/2007/07/27/canadian-doctor-describes-the-nightmare-of-canadas-health-care-system.php

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Section# 3 Info Concerning HR3200

Why NO Tort Reform: At least we get the truth here
Dean: Dems Left Tort Reform Out of ObamaCare for Fear of Trial Lawyers. I want my Elected Rep to take on the trial Lawyers so The America People Win not the lawyers
http://www.breitbart.tv/dean-dems-left-tort-reform-out-of-obamacare-for-fear-of-trial-lawyers/

Five Major Faults with the Health Care Bills
http://www.heritage.org/research/healthcare/wm2599.cfm

Economics of Play-or-Pay Mandates in Health Care Reform Bills
http://www.heritage.org/research/healthcare/bg2312.cfm

They tried it in Hawaii
Universal Nightmare: Hawaii's Failed Universal Health Care Expemerint
http://www.smallbusinesshawaii.com/2009/PR072409.html

The Nightmare of Universal Health Care
http://www.intellectualconservative.com/article3186.html

Busting the Mythbusters on Health Care Reform
http://libertarianviewpoint.com/blog/?p=500

Obama’s Medicare Cuts: Arbitrary Caps and Price Controls
http://blog.heritage.org/2009/06/22/obamas-medicare-cuts-arbitrary-caps-and-price-controls/

Obama Officials: Taxes May Rise to Pay Health Care
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory?id=8235766

Dem health bill would raise drug premiums - CBO study found
http://thehill.com/homenews/house/56877-dem-health-bill-would-raise-drug-premiums

Want Mainstream Media. how about ABC 20/20
Show this to Obamacare supporter and they will flip

John Stosell was all for for Universal Health Care.. That was until he did research for this story.

Part I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEXFUbSbg1I&feature=related

Part II
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BpsEAVbCkMM&NR=1

Part III
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=refrYKq9tZQ&feature=related

Part IV
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzhiG0dcwN8&feature=related

Part V
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xsp_Jh5EIT0&feature=related

Part VI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_KCLm9cekU&feature=related

I copied this from Robert Lowery's website. He is running against Debbie Wasserman-Shultz who has a 100% Liberal Voting record. He has some Great solutions!!

So what are the solutions, based on Constitutional and free-market principles?

1) Tort Reform - Eliminate the need for doctors to order unnecessary procedures to protect themselves, and allow them to do what they do best… practice medicine!

2) Intrastate Competition - Giving people the freedom to choose health insurance from anywhere in the United States will increase competition, and at the same time decrease the cost of insurance.

3) Eliminate Cost Shifting - If Government only has to pay $10 for a procedure that costs $15 then the unpaid money has to be paid somehow… guess who gets to pay the extra $5? The private side.

4) Reduce Fraud - Only in a government program is there waste that would kill any free enterprise business. I recently read that the state of New York has a 15 billion dollar deficit… 15 billion dollars. While reading a different article I read that medical fraud in the state of New York was ESTIMATED to be right around 15 billion dollars! Just think, if they would work to eliminate he fraud, the state of New York would be in the black. Government has no motivation to investigate fraud, since their budget allocations are based on prior spending. The taxpayer pays a heavy price for this neglect. Private companies have a vested interest in keeping fraud in check, since fraud adversely affects their bottom line profitability.

5) Equal Plan Treatment - Tax law needs to be changed to treat individual plans the same way that it treats group plans. Either tax group plans, or give individual plans the same tax break.

In 10 short years, the number of people over 65 will double. The system will be bankrupt. Yes, we need to act to fix healthcare insurance, but you cannot fix a broken government program with a bigger government plan. We need to privatize and apply Constitutional and free market principles to the Government programs that are destined to bankrupt our great country.

Hmmm so obama lied once again. I forgot about this. What happened to this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XE6GxVI-su4&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fuser%2Fjbranstetter04&feature=player_embedded#t=50

Barack Obama Campaign Promise: Negotiate health care reform in public sessions televised on C-SPAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
This is the mother of all damming evidence!!!!!!
http://www.breitbart.tv/charming-liar-progressives-turn-on-obama-as-air-america-exposes-fascist-drug-deal/

http://www.breitbart.tv/naked-emperor-news-obamas-mother-of-all-political-lies-and-the-town-hall-mayhem-it-caused/

Lied about not wanting Universal single payer
People don't believe you SHOW THEM!!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-bY92mcOdk

Firms With Obama Ties Profit From Health Push
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/08/19/ap/politics/main5253424.shtml

http://osmoothie.com/2009/08/19/culture-of-corruption-firms-with-obama-ties-profit-from-health-push/
Watch the video with Michelle Malkin above. WOW!!!

Congress: Social Security could face a deficit within two years
http://www.tuscaloosanews.com/article/20090818/NEWS/908189977/1007?Title=Bachus-discusses-Social-Security-health-care

If our system is so bad and broken why is our LIFE EXPECTANCY going up??
http://www.breitbart.com/image.php?id=app-47250bbb-6eb8-4019-a28e-d1f2024bb07e&show_article=1&article_id=D9A65AL80

The Whole Foods Alternative to ObamaCare
Democracy in Action. Because he has a different opinion there is a boycott on wholefoods. How UnAmerican is that. Its disgusting and fascist.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204251404574342170072865070.html

32% Favor Single-Payer Health Care, 57% Oppose
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/current_events/healthcare/august_2009/32_favor_single_payer_health_care_57_oppose

More Americans See Democratic Party as “Too Liberal”
http://www.gallup.com/poll/121307/More-Americans-See-Democratic-Party-Too-Liberal.aspx

70% Prefer Government That Provides Fewer Services With Lower Taxes
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/mood_of_america/america_s_best_days

Obama's Health czar withhold's care from 65 yrs and up and children under 9 or ill - MUST WATCH
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSQUI7wamaQ

What the President's Health Care Advisor's Say (Scary)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LcwrDdXAI98

The Problems with Socialized Health Care
(i.e., trusting politicians and bureaucrats with your health care)
This is a Major Recourse all in its own
http://www.angelfire.com/pa/sergeman/issues/healthcare/socialized.html

Section# 4 The Constitutionality of Universal health care

HEALTH CARE IS NOT A RIGHT by Leonard Peikoff, Ph.D.
http://libertyonline.hypermall.com/hnr.html

the Constitutionality of health care reform WITH JAY SEKULOW
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJjhcMO0epc&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fbelowthebeltway.com%2F2009%2F08%2F20%2Fhealth-care-reform-the-constitution-and-the-limits-on-congressional-power%2F&feature=player_embedded

The Constitution: Well said soldier!!
http://www.breitbart.tv/constitutionally-astute-us-soldier-demands-apology-from-us-senator-at-missouri-town-hall/

The Constitutionality of health care reform The American Thinker

Illegal Health Reform

Patrick Henry - Liberty or Death

Skreeny
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Posted on 09-19-09 02:27:10 AM

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Originally posted by Dryden
When it comes to healthcare, the U.S., Britain and Canada are hurting
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-oe-klein7-2009apr07,0,3092824.story

You raise an interesting point, here.

Please, if you're going to use links to try to support your point, check what is said in them. That one's entire message seems to be "Americans use faulty statistics to pretend that they have things better than anyone else".

(Alternately, instead of looking at flaws that develop in systems that exist now, try to support a view that they're endemic to the system--not "These single-payer systems have these problems", but "All single-payer systems have these problems". More importantly, don't confuse those two things; I've heard of rather nasty malpractice situations in our American system, too, but very few people are going to suggest that it's the norm rather than the exception.)

And, on an unrelated note:

Originally posted by Dryden
Cash For Clunkers - Lasted 2 months before it went bankrupt

The whole point of that program was to use up its money; it had no regular source of funding. Saying it went bankrupt within 2 months is like complaining that your storm drain ran out of water within an hour of a rainstorm.

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Posted on 09-19-09 02:37:13 AM (last edited by Revya at 09-18-09 11:39 PM)

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Originally posted by Dryden
I am not even going to begin speaking with someone who blames every problem we have on Bush. Now this has been happening for years and happened a long time ago.

Oh boy, here we go.

I come on here for an honest debate. A rational debate. What do I get? Nothing but insults? I came here to test something and I believe I have.

I love how you insinuate that I did nothing but insult you. Man, I should've left in the occasional sentences that really did take a stab at your intelligence; at least then it'd be warranted.

First, I have done more research in the last 6 months then you have your entire life about government. Read a book called the "5,000 year leap" or "The Real George Washington, Ben Franklin, and Thomas Jefferson" . How about reading the constitution again. How about reading Thomas Pains common sense. Before you insult someone get to know them better.

Baseless accusations, especially given what you're doing.

Let me tell you something. I was an 11 year old big liberal. Save the whales, dolphins, and the earth. Then I changed when I started asking the major question "What if I am wrong?" I have asked that question ever day since. I voted for the (R) my whole life. I voted for Bush in 2004 because to this day I still believe he was better then that ass clown.

Remember, people you disagree with are assclowns.

But I hate Bush for different reasons. He betrayed my principles. He was for amnesty and then he betrayed Capitilism. At that moment he was dead to me.

hahahahaha capitalism

But around the same time I realized my own party had lost there way and I am now an independent. DC is rotting from the inside. It is a cauldron of corruption and bile. Everyone there cares nothing about you and me and only cares about relection and how the press portrays them. I trust no one in DC right now. But go ahead and call me all the names you want because I have been called them many times over. I have the facts behind me and calling names only proves my point.

That's actually pretty funny given the above few points. Foot, mouth

When in a debate someone throws a word like "Racist" around then they are a coward because they know they have lost the debate. Stop calling names and debate.

Originally posted by you, not even 4 paragraphs ago
ass clown

Study the stuff below. Think.... If you don't believe it then so be it. But don't you see that debates like this is what DC doesn't want. Instead they hurl insults to throw you off. Think for yourself. If your a democrat then that's great. How can you read the facts and not be outraged. What happened to the Kennedy democrat's? We both love our country just ask this question. What if my side is right?

The Kennedy democrat kind of ... died. Of a brain tumor. It was all over the news just a while ago. Perhaps you missed it?

You want links. You got links.

Yay!

Section# 1 UK Care
I don't want to see this stuff happening here in America!!!!!
'Cruel and neglectful' care of one million NHS patients exposed

In the last six years, the Patients Association claims hundreds of thousands have suffered from poor standards of nursing, often with 'neglectful, demeaning, painful and sometimes downright cruel' treatment.

I don't want to see this stuff happening here in America!!!!!!!!!!!!! Oops, too late.

Patients died due to 'appalling care' at Staffordshire hospitals - Healthcare Commission
Link 1
Link 2

Late to the party again (several more incidents, just google "died in the hospital" or such)

Hospitals 'ignoring whistle blowing staff afraid for patient safety'
Question: How much more is being covered up if people are scared to come foreward or are just being ignored?
Link 1

The US has whistleblower protections.

Woman gives birth on pavement 'after being refused ambulance'

See my above link in which somebody died because of this. In America!

The babies born in hospital corridors: Bed shortage forces 4,000 mothers to give birth in lifts, offices and hospital toilets
Link

UK has a shortage of beds. America has a shortage of staff.

Sentenced to death on the NHS

Already demonstrated in legislation and current states of the US that this would not happen.

Prisoners have a better diet than Health Service hospital patients, scientists warn

Try reading the comments, of which any actual account of the health care system in those hospitals is actually wildly different from the account in the news... and this is before even mentioning that the Daily Mail isn't exactly known for honesty (they've been known to photoshop images to make up stories)

So, part one down!

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Posted on 09-19-09 02:42:07 AM

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Originally posted by Skreeny
And, on an unrelated note:
Originally posted by Dryden
Cash For Clunkers - Lasted 2 months before it went bankrupt
The whole point of that program was to use up its money; it had no regular source of funding. Saying it went bankrupt within 2 months is like complaining that your storm drain ran out of water within an hour of a rainstorm.

You deserve a medal for that one

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Gabu

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Posted on 09-19-09 03:00:49 AM (last edited by GabuChickenleg at 09-19-09 12:02 AM)

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Originally posted by Revya
United States Postal Service - Going Bankrupt

A loss during a recession (where mail volume is lowering) is not "going bankrupt".

And besides, the growth of using Email over snailmail will essentially hurt the postal system in the US anyway, and even much of the world in general. But people will need to get physical things to one place to another, so there's going to be a need for the service no matter what.

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Dryden

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Posted on 09-19-09 03:25:56 AM

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Okay lets try something else since you asked for facts. Where given facts. Then said those facts are not good enough for you.....

We all should agree here that Bush gave us the first bailouts to a total of around 800 billion dollars. Then Obama comes in and does another 750 billion I believe. So that's Around 1.5 trillion dollars by the end of February. Then he does a stimulus bill. So we are up close to 2 trillion dollars this year alone not to mention what we have carried over. Social Security was in trouble for awhile and is failing along with medicare and medicade. So, my question to you is where all this money comes from? Even the whitehouse estimates for helathcare put it over 1 trillion.

Let me guess? Tax the rich? Well 1% of America has an annual income over 1 million dollars. Okay how about the top 5%. Did you know that the top 5% pay 45% of the taxes? So lets say we take all the rich peoples money. Well they will either move away or go bankrupt. Then where do we get our money? Poor people are not rich now for a reason? Even if the government gave the tax money to the poor (if you believe that I have a bridge to sell you) most of them would not know how to turn it into more and burn through it and we would just be a country of poor people with a rich elite? Now where have I heard of that before? Oh yeah... The soviet union.

We don't have the money for a program of this magnitude. Yet lets pass it anyway and enslave our children to the U.S. government financially.

One last important thing.... Show me the article and the clause in the constitution were it gives us a right to health care? I am waiting. It doesn't exist. Therefore this should be something the people should vote on as an amendment. I have a sneaking suspicion that they would never agree to that because they know it would lose.

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Posted on 09-19-09 03:47:51 AM

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Originally posted by Dryden
Okay lets try something else since you asked for facts. Where given facts. Then said those facts are not good enough for you.....

Yes, because, as I showed, they're all... bullshit. They're not "facts". They're BULLSHIT.

We all should agree here that Bush gave us the first bailouts to a total of around 800 billion dollars. Then Obama comes in and does another 750 billion I believe. So that's Around 1.5 trillion dollars by the end of February. Then he does a stimulus bill. So we are up close to 2 trillion dollars this year alone not to mention what we have carried over. Social Security was in trouble for awhile and is failing along with medicare and medicade. So, my question to you is where all this money comes from? Even the whitehouse estimates for helathcare put it over 1 trillion.

Economic analysts have suggested that the "recession" would be getting worse without the stimulus packages. When you're in a recession, the worst thing you can do is tighten the gov't budget. Nobody else is spending; that's where the government comes in. See also the New Deal, which funded hundreds of public works projects at great expense, yet without that...

The healthcare projected costs are $1 trillion over ten years, or about $100 B per year. The defense budget is $500 B/year, yet nobody seems to be whining about that one.

Let me guess? Tax the rich? Well 1% of America has an annual income over 1 million dollars. Okay how about the top 5%. Did you know that the top 5% pay 45% of the taxes? So lets say we take all the rich peoples money. Well they will either move away or go bankrupt.

Then where do we get our money? Poor people are not rich now for a reason? Even if the government gave the tax money to the poor (parenthesized insult because I'm a pompous asshole) most of them would not know how to turn it into more and burn through it and we would just be a country of poor people with a rich elite?

Already there, chief.

Now where have I heard of that before? Oh yeah... The soviet union.

America, actually, as communism is (by definition) equality in everything.

We don't have the money for a program of this magnitude. Yet lets pass it anyway and enslave our children to the U.S. government financially.

$100,000,000,000 (cost per year) / 307,418,000 (US Population) = $325/year per person. Expensive! Especially when you mention (above) how the top 5% of earnings pays 45% of taxes, which means it's actually more like $175 or so a year... and that's without even adjusting further for the rest of the tax brackets.

Slavery, indeed.

One last important thing.... Show me the article and the clause in the constitution were it gives us a right to health care? I am waiting. It doesn't exist. Therefore this should be something the people should vote on as an amendment. I have a sneaking suspicion that they would never agree to that because they know it would lose.

I guess taking care of your fellow human beings is just too hard for you. Heaven forbid we, as humans, have compassion or empathy.

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Posted on 09-19-09 03:50:14 AM

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Also, if you think that "$400 per year per person" estimate is outrageous, here, have this:

To recap: Premiums for a full year of family coverage increased 5% to $13,375 in 2009, with employees on average footing $3,515 of the bill and employers paying $9,860, according to a report released Tuesday from the Kaiser Family Foundation and the Health Research & Educational Trust. See this week’s Vital Signs for details on how employer coverage changed.

Thank you, come again!

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Posted on 09-19-09 04:07:48 AM

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Originally posted by Dryden
we would just be a country of poor people with a rich elite? Now where have I heard of that before?

The United States, around 1865-1893, before straight capitalism was rejected in favor of government regulation? (Incidentally, that also ended with a recession, same with the period directly before WWII.)

Originally posted by Dryden
One last important thing.... Show me the article and the clause in the constitution were it gives us a right to health care? I am waiting. It doesn't exist. Therefore this should be something the people should vote on as an amendment. I have a sneaking suspicion that they would never agree to that because they know it would lose.

Yeah, there's nowhere in there saying that people have the right to live. You could argue that it's a duty of the government, though ("promote the general welfare"), and the legislative branch could easily enforce it ("regulate commerce [...] among the several states"; it's been used for weirder things before). Alternately, amendment 10 suggests that the state has the right to control your health care (then again, considering what's been going on with the 4th and 6th amendments, they may not count for much any more). Or you could go to the Declaration, for all the good it was worth, and pull in the whole "that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness", and you can even notice that it was lifted from one of Locke's writings, but with one particular right removed (hint: property).

I'm not sure you'd find a section in the Constitution protecting you from people breaking into your house and stealing your stuff, either, but you'd be hard-pressed to claim it's not a right.

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