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05-04-22 01:01:56 PM
Jul - News - Federal Minimum Wage now up to $7.25 New poll - New thread - New reply
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Garmichael
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Posted on 08-04-09 05:09:56 PM Link | Quote

The problem with minimum wage is that it takes too much power away from the Free Market, and gives that power to politicians and financial regulators.

In economic terms, minimum wage is whats called a "Price Floor."

Price Floors are when the government sets the minimum cost something can me. Price ceilings are when the government sets the maximum cost something can be.

Both manipulate the Market Equilibrium.

If there was no minimum wage, businesses could choose how much to pay their employees. Yes, its easy to argue that businesses will try to get away with paying you the least they possibly can, which is true. The goal of any business is to maximize profit and minimize overhead. That's also your goal for your personal finances. You try to make more than you spend.

Now, what happens when you work somewhere and you're not getting paid enough to survive? It's time to look for another job, right? Businesses NEED employees. If a business gives their employees too little and they keep loosing their experienced workers, then they need to raise their wages a bit. If they pay their employees too much and they keep loosing profit, they need to lower their wages. This is the natural cycle of the economy, and the result of that cycle is Market Equilibrium. That is, the resulting wage is the point where employees do not feel abused, and profits are in the positive. This allows the business to expand, to hire more people, to raise wages, to create more positions, and so on. When the Government mandates a price floor on wages, this tweaks the market equilibrium. Businesses that cannot afford their employees have only two choices: minimize their staff, and raise the end price to the consumer. Both of these are bad for the work force because it means less of us are getting jobs, and the prices of consumer goods (like food, energy, housing, transportation, and so on) continue to climb.



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Hiryuu

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Posted on 08-04-09 06:03:36 PM (last edited by 飛龍 at 08-04-09 03:03 PM) Link | Quote
Originally posted by Garmichael
The problem with minimum wage is that it takes too much power away from the Free Market, and gives that power to politicians and financial regulators...


Very true but see there are people that have an issue with that 'Free Market' and the concept of capitalism...


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Garmichael
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Posted on 08-04-09 06:44:19 PM Link | Quote

Unfortunately, those people cannot see the difference between capitalism and greed. The alternative to capitalism, which is universal freedom of the market to build our own individual worth and capability, is socialism, which is when the government takes what it wants from each of us to help others. The very core of socialism is government theft, since they take money, resources, and property from otherwise prosperous people, and decide for themselves how best to utilize that money, resource, or property. When the laws and regulations dictate how each of us MUST spend our resources, we are robbed of our personal liberty to make our own choices.

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Hiryuu

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Posted on 08-04-09 06:47:10 PM Link | Quote


Very good, sir. Now I just wish I could convince other people of that fact.

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Garmichael
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Posted on 08-04-09 06:55:43 PM Link | Quote

Me too. Its tough out there.


The ironic part is that people are condemning capitalism because of the greed, while declaring government assistance is a right and they should get all they can get from the government.

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Posted on 08-04-09 07:18:58 PM Link | Quote
Which is pretty much unconstitutional as it is...not to mention that it's just a matter of people providing for themselves and taking the time to, quite literally, get a job if they were applicable and do it themselves. People that make 20K a year have private insurance...and this is of a majority that think that their insurance is much better than that which the government would provide anyways.

Most of what we're trying now is going in all the wrong directions...but the nice thing is, especially as of late, people are starting to wake up to all of this. Slowly but surely they're starting to get what they really voted for, if they voted for it, and others are just sitting by going 'hey, nice to see you got it...now let's figure this out'. It's not really an 'I told you so' more than we're just trying to protect what we've got in this country and trying to incite what's worked once again...and it's been proven in other countries, most in the EU, that it doesn't.

I think those that are holding onto the fact that this is all a good thing may just simply be stubborn and that they must be democratic or liberal or whatever through thick and thin regardless of logic; it's the only way I can see why they would want the situation we're in now...and I'm not usually one that gets into political concerns at all...but ever since the election it's more or less been nonstop for me because it just hasn't been given otherwise for me to lie around and do nothing...

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Posted on 08-05-09 01:57:28 PM Link | Quote
Originally posted by Garmichael
The problem with minimum wage is that it takes too much power away from the Free Market, and gives that power to politicians and financial regulators.

I'm curious. If you're arguing against minimum wage -- one of the most arcane rules of the modern economy, and indeed something that has been there for over a century with no aparrent downsides (after all, we were #1 for several decades when we implemented it), are you for OSHA, unions, and other regulations that keep workers safe?



In economic terms, minimum wage is whats called a "Price Floor."

Price Floors are when the government sets the minimum cost something can me. Price ceilings are when the government sets the maximum cost something can be.

Wrong, wrong, wrong. Minimum wage does NOT dictate minimum price, as should be fairly obvious to anybody who observes the general purpose cost of goods. (In fact, there is no minimum price for anything outside of what they decide to set, and even then there are other ways to lower their costs)



Both manipulate the Market Equilibrium.

If there was no minimum wage, businesses could choose how much to pay their employees. Yes, its easy to argue that businesses will try to get away with paying you the least they possibly can, which is true. The goal of any business is to maximize profit and minimize overhead. That's also your goal for your personal finances. You try to make more than you spend.

It's not "easy", it's bleedingly fucking obvious. There's a REASON that all of our jobs are outsourced to third world countries, emphasis on the "third world" bit. If you don't have to pay your employees anything, the executives get big bucks. Minimum wages help keep executive pay sane and give the workers a fair wage.

Moving on...


Now, what happens when you work somewhere and you're not getting paid enough to survive? It's time to look for another job, right? Businesses NEED employees.

It is, until you realize that every employer is paying the same, unlivable wage. Sure, you could raise your wages... but raising your wages means your prices must go up (as you said above!) to afford it, which means that suddenly the rest of the population that isn't being paid the raised wage can't afford your goods... and you start losing money and have to lay off employees. In short, you can't raise wages because your competition will make you keep it low with cheap labor.


If a business gives their employees too little and they keep loosing their experienced workers, then they need to raise their wages a bit.

This is completely irrelevant when you realize that grunt work (i.e. manufacturing) doesn't require "experience"; see burger flipping. This makes the next point irrelevant too...


If they pay their employees too much and they keep loosing profit, they need to lower their wages.


...So, moving along...


This is the natural cycle of the economy, and the result of that cycle is Market Equilibrium. That is, the resulting wage is the point where employees do not feel abused, and profits are in the positive.

This works just fine until every company is paying $0.01/hour for work. And where else are you going to go? Without money, you can't afford schooling, decent clothes, or other things that would allow you to move up in the chain of command outside of raw luck.


This allows the business to expand, to hire more people, to raise wages, to create more positions, and so on.

Assuming you can't raise wages (product becomes too expensive versus competitors) and can't lower costs (hard to go any lower than you already are, and going lower means you lose money to other competitors)... you're locked in and can't move, outside of some external force.


When the Government mandates a price floor on wages, this tweaks the market equilibrium. Businesses that cannot afford their employees have only two choices: minimize their staff, and raise the end price to the consumer. Both of these are bad for the work force because it means less of us are getting jobs, and the prices of consumer goods (like food, energy, housing, transportation, and so on) continue to climb.



In conclusion, you're crying about a problem that doesn't exist. If these problems -- where the cost of living suddenly skyrocketed and became unlivable -- not only would we not have all the safety measures we have now, but wouldn't we be far worse off than we are?

Yet people making minimum wage can often afford the cost of living and a few extras. Costs aren't skyrocketing out of control. We have more expendable income than ever.

I love your attempts to point fingers, but under any level of scrutiny they fall apart into what they are: a load of bullshit. Try harder.

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Posted on 08-05-09 02:03:12 PM Link | Quote
In fact, Washington state, which has a higher minimum wage than the rest of the nation, is obviously not suffering for it; Nintendo, Microsoft, and many other huge companies are based there.

But I digress. Truly, the invisible hand of the free market is infallable. It is most definitely not responsible for the consumerist culture we live in, nor for the incredible fallout of the mortgage crisis, or so many other problems...

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Garmichael
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Posted on 08-05-09 05:53:21 PM (last edited by Garmichael at 08-05-09 02:57 PM) Link | Quote

I am arguing against minimum wage for the downsides that are obviously not apparent. It was enacted in 1938, which wasn't that long ago and certainly not over a century ago. The United States' economy was very strong for a good couple hundred years until the early 1900's, when we started our move to Central Banking and heavy corporate lobbying.

A price floor is not just a term used to talk about consumer prices. It is used to describe any minimum cost to any service, product, or good. In other words, Minimum Wage IS a price floor to employers, since employers must pay for their employees service.

I recommend reading Answers.com Topic: Price Floor.



Minimum wage

A historical (and current) example of a price floor are minimum wage laws, laws specifying the lowest wage a company can pay an employee (employees are suppliers of labor and the company is the consumer in this case). When the minimum wage is set higher than the equilibrium market price for unskilled labor, unemployment is created (more people are looking for jobs than there are jobs are available). A minimum wage above the equilibrium wage would induce employers to hire fewer workers as well as cause more people to enter the labor market, the result is a surplus in the amount of labor available. The equilibrium wage for a worker would be dependent upon the worker's skill sets along with market conditions.



Before telling me I'm wrong 3 times in a row, you should double check your paradigm with a very simple google search.



Our jobs aren't getting outsourced to 3rd World Countries. They're getting outsourced to Second World Countries. A 3rd world country is a country that shows no or very little economic, social, and political development. Our jobs are being outsourced to nations like India, China, and parts of Central and South America. These places, India especially, are developing quickly and rapidly. Their economies are outclassing our own in a huge number of ways. The world's top doctors, dentists, technicians, IT, Programmers, and more, have been coming out of India for the last decade. They are in no means 3rd World. India has no minimum wage, and is one of the fastest developing nations on the planet. Our jobs are being outsourced to these places because businesses cannot afford to pay Americans to do it. They simply cannot operate in the United States and turn any profit. A business that turns no profit must close its doors. Here, Minimum Wage is directly responsible for Unemployment. The alternative to the end of outsourcing is the end of affordable clothing and free phone tech support. If we, the consumer, has to pay for American minimum wage, then the cheapest tshirts and jeans would cost us what it costs at the most American expensive outlets.



Before 1938, when minimum wage was enacted, there was not a problem of "every employer paying the same." Sorry, but you're wrong about that and it only takes a little bit of connecting the dots to see it. We had a booming economy and a strong job market long, long, long before minimum wage was enacted. The quality of goods and services was higher than it is now, and people made a living in manufacturing (where they learned how to actually make stuff) as opposed to today's 2/3rds service sector market.

Simply put, skills and capabilities, like, say, cabinet making or food preparation, are measurable. One person can be better than another person at it. The consumer seeks both low prices and quality goods. Often, the consumer will sacrifice one for the other, like paying a higher price for an excellent service or good, or paying a bargain price for a shoddy and disposable good. Some businesses make their profit by selling mass crap, some make their profit by selling fewer quality good. Those will superior skills earned superior wages.



And cost of living hasn't gone up since Minimum Wage has been enacted?
Maybe you should look at some data: Monthly Consumer Price Index since 1913. The CPI is a fairly accurate measurement of the cost of living.
(Not to digress, but many claim that the CPI is a measurement of inflation, which is not accurate.)



By the way, NO, the freemarket is NOT responsible for our consumerist culture, the fallout of the mortgage crisis, or many of the other problems. These problems are due to government interference and corporate lobbying. The Free Market is the OPPOSITE of these things, and we havent had a truly free market since 1913, when the Federal Reserve was created to oversee our financial policy. In 1933, when we went off the gold standard, the free market took another major hit. Since then, we've seen rampant inflation, raises in the cost of living, wall street taking over main street, and many of these problems. You can't blame the free market if 1) you dont really understand what it is, and 2) we havent had one since long before both of our life times.

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Posted on 08-05-09 11:15:21 PM (last edited by Xkeeper at 08-05-09 08:16 PM) Link | Quote
Originally posted by Garmichael
Maybe you should look at some data: Monthly Consumer Price Index since 1913. The CPI is a fairly accurate measurement of the cost of living.
(Not to digress, but many claim that the CPI is a measurement of inflation, which is not accurate.)

That looks pretty scary, until you look at the chart that shows the percentage increases.

Pretty outrageous when you consider that... oh, wait. Inflation's been around 2-5% too over the past several years, and inflation has nothing to do with minimum wage.

Oops.

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Posted on 08-06-09 01:30:11 AM Link | Quote
yeah, but the people that are actually working minnimum wage jobs are rarely, if ever, the primary breadwinner in the household... but it's always touted as helping those poor working families that are scraping to make ends meet. And that's just not true.

Garmichael: nice post
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Posted on 08-07-09 12:19:58 AM Link | Quote
Originally posted by geeogree
yeah, but the people that are actually working minnimum wage jobs are rarely, if ever, the primary breadwinner in the household... but it's always touted as helping those poor working families that are scraping to make ends meet. And that's just not true.

Garmichael: nice post

Where do you get that idea?

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Jul - News - Federal Minimum Wage now up to $7.25 New poll - New thread - New reply


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