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Jul - News - Almost feel sorry for the upper tax bracket in NY... New poll - New thread - New reply
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Hiryuu

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Posted on 07-16-09 03:20:27 PM Link | Quote
About 57% of their income go to taxes now.

I can't imagine people are going to want to stay around there much longer.

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Xkeeper

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Posted on 07-16-09 03:25:28 PM Link | Quote
I'll just say that if our health care system didn't suck so fucking much in the first place, we wouldn't have this problem.

So how about we see actual people and not $500000/year+ earners? The $80k one is a good start, but unless you're going to show what the taxes were before, you don't have much reason to be showing what they are after.

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Hiryuu

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Posted on 07-16-09 03:42:30 PM Link | Quote
Well, the state of Massachusetts is getting sued over the proposed plan. The popular opinion would be that with the doctors...not with politicians.

I'm not saying it shouldn't happen but I think the route it's taking is probably not a good one for the bottom line for people.

And if it dipped into the $80K working man, that would go against the 'Under $250K' promise that Obama has said that has been broken at least once before (cigarette tax, for starters).

But it really won't matter anyways considering that it won't be a bipartisan vote with the rate things are going.

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Posted on 07-16-09 03:55:54 PM Link | Quote
Bipartisanism is a stupid concept.

To that end, Massachusetts's problem is what universal coverage would prevent (or rather, single-payer). Could be worse, though — they could be treating people who are completely uninsured and get nothing.

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Hiryuu

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Posted on 07-16-09 03:57:48 PM Link | Quote
Originally posted by Xkeeper
Bipartisanism is a stupid concept...


Why?


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Lyskar
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Posted on 07-17-09 05:23:08 AM Link | Quote

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Two parties are made to oppose one another. So bipartisanship is basically going "Okay, we're in two different parties, who exist to oppose one another, but let's meet at the middle." However, this ideal form rarely occurs in reality.

Instead, it is usually used by one side to try to bend the other to do their whims. Especially if that other side isn't the majority party. I won't point any fingers, because I'm sure both sides have done it equally much over time--but in general I find bipartisanship not so much stupid, as improbable.

I would suspect (but cannot confirm, do not take my word for this) that Xkeeper means the latest calls for 'bipartisanship' are less than honest and involve one party doing something further than meeting the other side at the middle.

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Hiryuu

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Posted on 07-17-09 09:30:51 AM Link | Quote
That's basically what partisanship is.

That's basically what's happening here that the dems are trying to ram through the house.

That isn't bipartisanship.

Although if you are talking this current system, you are right; that's a laughable attempt, I admit, considering it's approximately 250-170 in the house for Dems/Repubs in the House and magic 60-40 'filibuster-proof' for Dems/Repubs in the Senate. Trying to have a bipartisan vote with a skewed system to the dems like that IS a joke.

But it gets to the point where a republic heads democracy heads oligarchy with the way things are going.

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Hiryuu

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Posted on 07-17-09 11:19:24 AM (last edited by Yume Kusanagi at 07-17-09 08:19 AM) Link | Quote
Here's a good one from 'say it ain't so' Joe on this...

"We have to spend money to keep from going bankrupt."

You know...he might be a gaffe machine...but at least we'd get a halfway honest president if it ever came down to it. That said, they don't have a friggin' clue.

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Lyskar
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Posted on 07-18-09 05:53:09 PM Link | Quote

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Metal_Man88
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Originally posted by Yume Kusanagi
But it gets to the point where a republic heads democracy heads oligarchy with the way things are going.


Well, yes. The government seems to wildly switch between Democratic and Republican--much to the disfavor of either party, as the aftereffects of the 'we rule' party usually ruins whichever party was in power, damages the nation, and makes a mess.

Ahhhh, Democracy. How funny you are.


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Xkeeper

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Posted on 07-19-09 04:02:20 AM Link | Quote
Originally posted by Yume Kusanagi
That's basically what partisanship is.

That's basically what's happening here that the dems are trying to ram through the house.

That isn't bipartisanship.

Although if you are talking this current system, you are right; that's a laughable attempt, I admit, considering it's approximately 250-170 in the house for Dems/Repubs in the House and magic 60-40 'filibuster-proof' for Dems/Repubs in the Senate. Trying to have a bipartisan vote with a skewed system to the dems like that IS a joke.

But it gets to the point where a republic heads democracy heads oligarchy with the way things are going.

Well, consider. If you just say fuck it and even the split, 50/50, all but the most useless legislation will be caught forever. That's kind of, you know... the whole point of elections. To choose who gets to have more power for that cycle.

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Posted on 07-20-09 05:13:21 PM Link | Quote
Originally posted by Hiryuu
That isn't bipartisanship.

Neither is this.

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Posted on 07-21-09 05:15:37 PM Link | Quote
Can't say I'm surprised at the ratings though. This is about similar to the voting records for the popular vote, actually higher -- it was 52.9% Obama and 45.7% McCain (at least by turnout, anyway; I suppose some people on either side just couldn't be arsed to vote). Nobody's actually disappointed Obama has not yet worked the miracles a few wackos claimed he'd be able to except *perhaps* those same now-jaded people; it seems as believable to say that most of the people who aren't approving voted, say, McCain in the first place and are still quite skeptical of some of Obama's policies, which in this topic, even, are considered by at least some to be too radical.


Interesting take on approval ratings.

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Hiryuu

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Posted on 07-23-09 10:12:26 AM Link | Quote
I'd read this.

By the by...it doesn't look like the votes are going to be enough with the way things are going before August recess.

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Posted on 07-23-09 10:21:47 AM Link | Quote
I'm not even going to read past this, because it's all patent bullshit:

First, Mr. Obama doggedly promises that if you like your (private) health-care coverage now, you can keep it. That promise is hollow, because the Democrats’ reforms are designed to push an ever-increasing number of Americans into a government-run health-care plan.

If a so-called public option is part of health-care reform, the Lewin Group study estimates over 100 million Americans may leave private plans for government-run health care.


First paragraph: THE SCARY GOVERNMENT PLAN WILL FORCE PEOPLE FROM PRIVATE INSURERS TO THE GOVERNMENT PLAN!
Second paragraph: Some study estimates that people may willingly leave private plans for the government option.

Basically spoooooky sensationalism at its finest. It's like saying that, just because a Wal-Mart moved in, you're going to be forced to shop there instead of continuing to shop at your other Target or whatever other store you might have. Bullshit, through and through.



Look, I'll put it bluntly: If government care is going to suck so much, why care? Nobody will go to it, nobody will end up paying for it (since nobody is using it), and private insurance won't have to worry about it.

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Hiryuu

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Posted on 07-23-09 04:20:58 PM (last edited by Hiryuu at 07-23-09 03:28 PM) Link | Quote
Originally posted by Xkeeper
...Look, I'll put it bluntly: If government care is going to suck so much, why care? Nobody will go to it, nobody will end up paying for it (since nobody is using it), and private insurance won't have to worry about it.


Except private care will eventually be phased out, doctor-to-patient relationships will fizzle over it, the bill doesn't even take effect until 2013 anyways and...

...well, I shouldn't really have to draw this out.

Anyways, they're now looking at September to try again. Pelosi's desperately trying to seek getting the August recess delayed to get this passed but it just isn't going to happen.

If you read the rest of the article, it does go into a bipartisan solution to the problem. Actually being straight with each other would also be a genuine start.

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Posted on 07-23-09 08:08:31 PM Link | Quote
Originally posted by Hiryuu
Anyways, they're now looking at September to try again. Pelosi's desperately trying to seek getting the August recess delayed to get this passed but it just isn't going to happen.

If you read the rest of the article, it does go into a bipartisan solution to the problem. Actually being straight with each other would also be a genuine start.

Bipartisanism is still a terrible concept.


Except private care will eventually be phased out, doctor-to-patient relationships will fizzle over it, the bill doesn't even take effect until 2013 anyways and...

...well, I shouldn't really have to draw this out.

Why would doctor-patient relationships be phased out? As has been already stated, if you like your doctor or coverage, you could keep it without problems.

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Hiryuu

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Posted on 07-24-09 11:32:36 AM Link | Quote
Originally posted by Xkeeper
...As has been already stated, if you like your doctor or coverage, you could keep it without problems.


Not true.

They fail to mention that about 83 million will be forced off because of competition against the government anyways...especially if he goes talking about taking the profit out of it. Obama said that in his speech the other night.

You take money out of private sector insurance and...you don't have private sector insurance.

You don't have insurance then. Then you're government controlled.

A better contention would be to say that you don't see the government officials being put onto this 'care' either because they have better ones and it will be as such regardless of this passing or not.

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Posted on 07-25-09 03:06:49 AM Link | Quote
Originally posted by Hiryuu
Originally posted by Xkeeper
...As has been already stated, if you like your doctor or coverage, you could keep it without problems.


Not true.

They fail to mention that about 83 million will be forced off because of competition against the government anyways...especially if he goes talking about taking the profit out of it. Obama said that in his speech the other night.

You take money out of private sector insurance and...you don't have private sector insurance.

You don't have insurance then. Then you're government controlled.

A better contention would be to say that you don't see the government officials being put onto this 'care' either because they have better ones and it will be as such regardless of this passing or not.


Again: If government care is going to be so terrible, only the people who can't afford better will move to it. Not fucking rocket science, chief.

If it isn't so terrible, then maybe — maybe — we'll see people leaving.

But then again, I lost sympathy for the health care/insurance industry. Have you read up on all the people who have lost coverage suddenly when they needed it most?

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Posted on 07-25-09 03:09:34 AM (last edited by Xkeeper at 07-25-09 12:10 AM) Link | Quote
Though let's 1-up this discussion even further.

Why have private insurance in the first place?

Why would you gamble against yourself? It's legalized gambling, that's all it is.

Pay $xxx to an insurance company for years, only to gamble:
- You don't get sick. Your payments are wasted money.
- You get sick, and they pay out: Your payments mean you got covered, but will usually sharply increase afterwards, especially if it's a lasting condition or disease
- You get sick, and they cut your coverage: Your payments are wasted money, but now it is malicious instead of pure chance.


The house always wins.

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Hiryuu

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Posted on 07-25-09 03:10:57 AM Link | Quote
Originally posted by Xkeeper
...But then again, I lost sympathy for the health care/insurance industry. Have you read up on all the people who have lost coverage suddenly when they needed it most?


Have you read up on Obama basically telling 100-year-olds to take a pill?

Ought to. Nice little pacemaker scenario on his 'end-of-life' spiel.

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