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Jul - Computers and Technology - CSS Anti-table elitism? New poll - New thread - New reply
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Dwedit
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Posted on 02-10-09 06:45:06 AM Link | Quote
What is up with everyone hating on using Tables in HTML, and insisting on using the horrible CSS "Float" feature instead?

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Posted on 02-10-09 12:39:58 PM Link | Quote
It's a mixed bag.

Tables are a lot easier to position and tend to work better, as well as providing an easy way to do grid-based layouts.

CSS positioning has laughable compatability (something as simple as "margin-right: 100px; width: 100%;" will break differently in every browser), and it's basically good for almost nothing aside from stereotypical fixed-width, centered designs.

If nothing else, though, div-based means you can do a lot more without having to rewrite the code, but using tables is an absolute ton easier to design for.
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Posted on 02-10-09 01:13:21 PM Link | Quote
I've always used tables, and I'm still using them (mostly though because I have no clue how to do it otherwise )
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Posted on 02-11-09 01:27:21 AM Link | Quote
I tend to use divs and CSS for positioning and layout. And tables for ... tabulated data.

Though, it's possible to get table-like behavior with divs (using the display property), but it tends to be iffy. Very iffy
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Posted on 02-11-09 01:28:44 AM Link | Quote
I use CSS for formatting things, and HTML for the rest.

...Provided this isn't what you mean, I hope. It works excellently for me.

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Posted on 02-11-09 04:17:30 AM Link | Quote

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Metal_Man88
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CSS positioning I only use where it doesn't break unexpectedly.

I use tables otherwise. But I can do both.

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Posted on 02-11-09 10:43:11 AM (last edited by Minato Arisato at 02-11-09 07:44 AM) Link | Quote
Originally posted by Dwedit
What is up with everyone hating on using Tables in HTML, and insisting on using the horrible CSS "Float" feature instead?



"because CSS can do ANYTHING"

(screw these people, I think tables were okay in XHTML 1.0 Strict and we all know how of a bitch it is.)
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Posted on 02-11-09 01:17:22 PM Link | Quote

I just use divs in my layout because they're so simple, but I still find tables useful. Even if they can be a bit bulky.

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Posted on 02-11-09 01:25:14 PM Link | Quote
Originally posted by Xkeeper
and it's basically good for almost nothing aside from stereotypical fixed-width, centered designs.


I disagree with that statement, and this link shows why.

There are a few other layouts on that page too...


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Posted on 02-11-09 02:35:08 PM Link | Quote
Originally posted by Darkdata
I disagree with that statement, and this link shows why.


If only that site gave barebones code , now if I want to use the layout, I need to take out all the content and figure out the CSS I can remove.

Divs work best for horizontal sections, that is what they were originally designed for. However, doing vertical sections, that has been annoying to code for, and I code it differently every single time.
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Posted on 02-11-09 06:58:23 PM Link | Quote
Originally posted by neotransotaku
Originally posted by Darkdata
I disagree with that statement, and this link shows why.


If only that site gave barebones code


... Erm, what?

I mean, the whole point is to give the barebones code so you can use it to make your own site.
I would link to my site here, but my webhost pooped on me, and vanished.

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Posted on 02-11-09 07:06:54 PM Link | Quote
wow, what is that? 12 divs for what could be accomplished in ~5 table cells?

not to mention all the hacks for full-height divs (and even then it it's actually just background color, better hope you don't want anything at the bottom of the page!)

the whole point of using tables is that you have an exact grid with vertical and horizontal alignments that you can position anything in instead of this bullshit "well uh go to the left I guess" system that CSS uses. Oh, and vertically aligning something in CSS? hahahaha fuck you
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Posted on 02-11-09 07:18:25 PM (last edited by Darkdata at 02-11-09 04:19 PM) Link | Quote
Originally posted by Xkeeper
better hope you don't want anything at the bottom of the page!)


What do you mean by the bottom of the page? I can see a nice white bottom with the border on top showing links.
Pic here

On a side note, I found it useful...

Sadly I can't link to my site due to hosting issues again...

Small Edit: I count only 8 Divs, not 12.

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Posted on 02-11-09 11:06:23 PM (last edited by Waffle Ryebread at 02-11-09 08:08 PM) Link | Quote
I was basically taught by my Web design instructor that tables are OMG EVIL for page layout and never to use them for that purpose in her class, otherwise we'd be castrated (grade-wise).

Ha ha ha. I never thought I'd have nightmares about HTML.

Now that that's over, I'll use whatever the hell works. F*ck the W3C recommendations. (Here's a helpful tip, guys: don't deprecate tags and attributes until there are functional, well-supported CSS equivalents in place that don't require stupid hacks or 5 billion lines of spaghetti code, and maybe Web designers won't wish burning death upon you!)

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Posted on 02-11-09 11:09:10 PM Link | Quote
Originally posted by Waffle Ryebread
Now that that's over, I'll use whatever the hell works. F*ck the W3C recommendations. (Here's a helpful tip, guys: don't deprecate tags and attributes until there are functional, well-supported CSS equivalents in place that don't require stupid hacks or 5 billion lines of spaghetti code!)


I am in agreement here BMF. I just prefer to use div's over tables if I can. If not, well I use tables.

However, I always get my page to have valid code for whatever HTML 4/X version I am using.


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Posted on 02-11-09 11:17:24 PM Link | Quote
I just find the W3C to be a laughably incompetent organization sometimes.

"Hey, we're just gonna deprecate this widely-used tag here...oh, it still works, you can keep using it, but we'd really appreciate it if you didn't, because some Web browser might not support it in the distant future. In the meantime, can we interest you in some half-broken CSS and a shiny validation sticker?"

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Posted on 02-12-09 03:03:19 AM Link | Quote
Originally posted by Waffle Ryebread
I just find the W3C to be a laughably incompetent organization sometimes.

"Hey, we're just gonna deprecate this widely-used tag here...oh, it still works, you can keep using it, but we'd really appreciate it if you didn't, because some Web browser might not support it in the distant future. In the meantime, can we interest you in some half-broken CSS and a shiny validation sticker?"


I am kinda a new person to html coding(came in at 4.X with css), so what are some tags that have been useful that have been deprecated?

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Posted on 02-12-09 03:07:22 AM (last edited by hydraphatphelinez at 02-12-09 12:07 AM) Link | Quote
Originally posted by Darkdata
I disagree with that statement, and this link shows why.

This is possible with only a handful of divs (like, five six) and some CSS fuckery.
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Posted on 02-12-09 05:13:12 AM (last edited by Metal_Man88 at 02-12-09 02:19 AM) Link | Quote

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Metal_Man88
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Feh, you want outdated but useful tags?

Well, first thing, Bold strike underline italics. Wait a minute, that is that? They have 'Strong' instead? Really now. HTML came from SGML back a long time ago. You're not gonna make it less dependent on tags which say 'display THIS way' than it already is with CSS.

CSS? Well, when it works, it's fine. But that's a few things. Oh. Of course you can hack it to work. But if you need a hack to make it work everywhere, you could just 'hack' with some tables.

See, I don't hate CSS, and tables are a bit awkward to use for display.

But with tables I can position something wherever I want it to, while CSS will commonly refuse to move something where I want it to. And I'm not an idiot--I began HTML programming before I even had internet, back in 1997. I learned CSS as it occurred and can hack it to work across all pages.

But some positioning parts are just so broken that it requires some 'deprecated' TABLE tags and positioning tags to make an innovative or unique layout work right.

With that in mind, I bring up another great issue: Table borders.

Take a look at my layout. Now, there are three ways to do those borders (the blue things which are rounded.)
1. Link images inside a table (messy, loading time, breaks when images are gone)
2. Abuse the bgcolor attribute (which, by the way, works in all browsers I've seen)
3. Use CSS to set the border color and pixel attributes

Wait a minute. Those CSS things don't even come out yet, almost no browsers support the prototypical, untested method, and it can't make a rounded border to save its life.

So. CSS is a great idea in theory, but tell me to make something cross-browser compatible, use only non-deprecated tags w/CSS, and abstain from hacks... and support IE? You'll have to cross one of those things off. It'll take deprecated tags or hacks to do those things.

It's just insulting for them to tell old timey web designers like me that what works is dumb and what doesn't work is better. I prefer to use what works from both at the same time. :p

(FYI, I first learned HTML 3.0 back in the old days... heheheheh.)

The irony is that the topic speaks of 'elitism.' Yet the 'elite' of the web business are the old timers who suffered through 1998 and the old days. The people who believe CSS can do everything are if anything newbies.

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Posted on 02-12-09 05:23:34 AM (last edited by hydraphatphelinez at 02-12-09 02:26 AM) Link | Quote
Originally posted by Metal_Man88
CSS? Well, when it works, it's fine. But that's a few things. Oh. Of course you can hack it to work. But if you need a hack to make it work everywhere, you could just 'hack' with some tables.

Of course it does.

Originally posted by Metal_Man88

With that in mind, I bring up another great issue: Table borders.

Take a look at my layout. Now, there are three ways to do those borders (the blue things which are rounded.)
1. Link images inside a table (messy, loading time, breaks when images are gone)
2. Abuse the bgcolor attribute (which, by the way, works in all browsers I've seen)
3. Use CSS to set the border color and pixel attributes

Wait a minute. Those CSS things don't even come out yet, almost no browsers support the prototypical, untested method, and it can't make a rounded border to save its life.

Actuallllly, a few rendering engines support "non-standard" css declarations: 


-moz-border-radius

and 


-webkit-border-radius


There's supposed to be an equivalent, standard declaration specified in CSS3, but only supported in FF3 and any webkit-based browser (surprise!)

Originally posted by Metal_Man88
So. CSS is a great idea in theory, but tell me to make something cross-browser compatible, use only non-deprecated tags w/CSS, and abstain from hacks... and support IE? You'll have to cross one of those things off. It'll take deprecated tags or hacks to do those things.

It's just insulting for them to tell old timey web designers like me that what works is dumb and what doesn't work is better. I prefer to use what works from both at the same time. :p

Why do developers support IE again? Oh, right, ha ha marketshare! It's still depressing that a page cannot be styled and laid out entirely with CSS. :|

Oh, and positioning elements to be dead center on the page? Hahahahahaheadache ._.
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