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09-22-18 08:51:27 AM

Jul - Gaming - Randomizers New poll - New thread - New reply
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Xkeeper

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Posted on 01-14-18 10:05:13 PM Link | Quote
One of the latest trends of the last year or so has been making "randomizers": basically, automated ROM hacks that move all the objects and objectives in a game around, effectively creating a new version. If you watched AGDQ, you might have seen one of the bigger known ones that works with The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past.

Have you played any of them? Do you have a favorite, or one you'd like to see made?
Lunaria

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Posted on 01-14-18 10:30:23 PM Link | Quote
I have been playing (and streaming) the ALttP one for a while, it's neat, but also kind of hard. If you're not into doing speed running then the weekly races and stuff can be a bit disheartening at times, since you compete with the best of the best (some times).

Other than that I guess I should plug the various Zelda Classic Randomizers.

Randomizer Returns is a Zelda 1 "remake" in a different tileset, but there's a twist (or five). What dungeons you get is randomized and what items you find or even exist in the world at all is random. There's a wide variety of content here to make each playthrough interesting. It's also jam-packed with options. Don't want to use the Z1 overworld? You can use the BS or Outlands one instead! (Not recommended though, the Outlands overworld is kind of baaad).

Mirage Island is another quest made by the same author. This one is a lot more bulky but can still be cleared in a decently reasonable time frame. Sadly the overworld is a bit too large... Anyway, this Quest/Randomizer has a completely new overworld and brand new dungeons, but what dungeons you get in a given run is random. (Unless you select grand tour mode, which generates ALL dungeons into the game). Plenty of options to choose from.
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Posted on 01-15-18 11:29:40 AM Link | Quote
i have arrived to plug the Metroid Zero Mission Randomizer!

it can randomize pickups, abilities, or both, can restrict things so you can only get items if you would be able to get back out with them, can make sure there's no way to crash the game (by getting power bombs before normal bombs, for example), and can remove certain item-check barriers (such as the bug plant in norfair that disappears once you get power grip, making Elite Pirates susceptible to any beam, etc). quite a neat little randomizer, though i admit that, while i have beaten Mecha Ridley a handful of times now, i've never cleared it quite yet. I hope to stream more attempts of it though!!
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Posted on 01-17-18 03:01:54 PM (last edited by a tiny fairy at 01-17-18 03:07:46 PM) Link | Quote
I'm really super into the Zelda 1 randomizer! It's a ton of fun and unlike basically any game I've played?

Essentially what z1 rando does that other randomizers don't is it constructs entirely new dungeons to explore and shuffles where they are on the overworld map. So unlike LTTP rando, you don't need a ton of knowledge of the base game to play—more than just changing item locations but keeping dungeons the same, z1 rando is more similar to a roguelike, exploring and taking calculated risks to find the items you need to progress. Racing z1 rando rewards things like being able to explore quickly and efficiently, knowing when to fight and when to avoid combat, how to manage limited resources like bombs and keys… it's a very unique experience.

I'm actually part of a community that runs z1 rando races every sunday, geared towards beginners and explicitly queer friendly and inclusive, if anyone wants to try it out? Even if you're busy on sundays there are usually people around who will be glad to hop into voice on discord and walk you through how to play in general, or a particular seed, or will race with you casually. It's great fun!

edit: I should mention that there are tons of flags that make the game easier or harder for new players also! there's a mode where you're given hints as to dungeon/item locations, a mode where all enemies die in one hit, a mode where you have essentially unlimited bombs, a mode where you can get into the final dungeon without having to clear the previous 8, etc, as well as the other side where you might have to spend time finding the wood sword, might have increased HP on or damage from enemies, might have more complex or difficult dungeon layouts from using 2nd quest rooms to generate them, and things like that. Lots of wiggle room in how the ROM is generated to tailor the race to your skill level! Using the more standard flags, a seed usually takes between 1 and 2 hours to solve depending on how good you are, but it's all adjustable in a lot of ways.

I wish there was a commercial game that played similar to this tbh…
Xkeeper

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Posted on 01-17-18 03:27:33 PM Link | Quote
There's sort of the Issac series by the Meat Boy folks, but I don't know how close it is beyond a vague similarity.

My main issue with the Z1 randomizer was that there wasn't really any guide to knowing if there was a reward for clearing out a room or not, be it an item or otherwise. A lot of the people I watched run it seemed to just know based on what dungeon they were in and what room layouts were used, which feels really... unfair for people who don't know about it.
a tiny fairy

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Posted on 01-17-18 03:52:09 PM (last edited by a tiny fairy at 01-17-18 03:54:31 PM) Link | Quote
There are definitely a few things to memorize, but not so much as in LTTP, I think.

Generally, there are only a few room layouts (in 1st quest) that are "pushblock" rooms: the diamond staircase room, the rooms with only one or only two blocks, and the C-shape room.

For other rooms, there's a simple heuristic: if the room had an item on the floor already, it won't have a drop. That eliminates about half of the rooms…

If you do want to get serious about things, here's a list of how many of each room exist and whether they have drops… but for the most part, no need to memorize, just avoid clearing rooms unless you need keys or can't find the triforce piece and don't bother clearing rooms that have standing items in them.

Now, if you meant permanent items (wand, ladder, etc) then yes, that's also something you need to know. Dungeons 1, 8, and 9 have two items, 2-7 have just one; dungeons 1 and 2 have one item each that's a floor item (either a standing item or a drop); there's also an item under an Armos on the overworld, an item on a ladder spot on the Eastern coast, and an item in the White Sword cave that requires 4~6 heart containers to pick up. Any item can be anywhere, except that progression items (ladder, bow, raft, recorder, power bracelet) can't appear in 9.

All of that only makes you a bit faster at clearing seeds, though. It's nothing you need to know on your first few forays.

edit: Binding of Isaac is like most roguelikes in that there's no way to return to previous maps and no "real" exploration. z1 rando basically has a mapping phase where you try to cover as much of the overworld as you can before diving into dungeons, and as you gradually learn more about the seed you can guide your exploration (knowing a dungeon is in a certain region or that you don't need to bother finding a particular dungeon's item, stuff like that).
Xkeeper

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Posted on 01-17-18 04:58:10 PM (last edited by Xkeeper at 01-17-18 04:58:50 PM) Link | Quote
I looked at those maps and my eyes glazed over. Oof. It's still a lot to remember what is where if you want to avoid spending lots of time clearing, and don't forget that the game only spawns you with 3 HP, so if you run into more difficult monsters then you're usually screwed (or forced to go heal up repeatedly). Z4 largely solves this problem by just displaying rooms with items on the map, or having a tone sound if you can get one some other way. Granted, that's for keys, but I'd still love to see it backported.


E: Knowing which dungeons have how many of each room is also not that big of a help if you're playing a seed where you don't get to know what dungeon you're in (until you beat it)

E:E: and even then you have to know which of the triforce bits it is.
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Posted on 01-17-18 05:10:44 PM Link | Quote
The current tournament flags (and my playgroup) uses what's called "shapes", which constructs new dungeons from scratch using existing rooms, so "which dungeon" a room came from doesn't matter at all, it's just that there's only so many c-shape rooms, so many diamond rooms, etc. Dungeon numbers are also turned on, which gives you a lot of information: dungeons 1-6 share the same 16x8 space in memory, and each dungeon has more rooms in it than the previous (1 being a minimum of 10 rooms big); similarly, 7 and 8 share an 8x8 space with 8 being bigger than 7. I really don't think you need to memorize which rooms are which. Just use the heuristic that rooms with standing items don't have drops.

(honestly I'd love it if the compass detected keys and floor items like it does in 4, like you describe, but it's already a very useful item just pointing out triforce rooms)

I think you'd change your mind if you saw a walkthrough…? This and this are vods of my friend tetra doing tutorial/demonstration seeds where she explains all the decisions she's making as she goes, and were made as part of our beginner-friendly sunday race community for helping people get up to speed on the meta.
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Posted on 01-17-18 09:30:07 PM (last edited by Kaito Sinclaire at 01-17-18 09:30:28 PM) Link | Quote
My main issue with the Z1 randomizer is that it's closed source, unlike basically every other randomizer out there.
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Posted on 01-18-18 07:02:45 AM (last edited by Sanqui at 01-18-18 07:17:02 AM) Link | Quote
I've always found the concept of randomizers fun, and I've watched and played a good number of Pokémon randomizers in particular. I like those since they rely on so much knowledge and situational problem solving. I don't play any these days, though.

I've made a neat randomizer of my own, we even have a topic on it. I still have some improvements in line as well as some big ideas, but I've experienced severe fatigue developing it further.
Halian

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Posted on 01-22-18 10:52:20 PM (last edited by Halian at 01-22-18 10:52:40 PM) Link | Quote
With the non-Pokémon randomizers (because I've played that one before), how much knowledge of the base game should/must I have before randomizing?

(Also, are there any that don't work on OS X?)
Lunaria

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Posted on 01-23-18 03:41:31 AM Link | Quote
Depends on the game I'd imagine. The two ZC ones I plugged earlier don't really require much of any pre-knowledge. (Thought you might want to ask someone about the various options before you generate your seed, I'm on discord. :V )

For things like the alttp one? You should probably have beaten the game a few times if you ask me. Once is feasibly enough, but having a more fleshed out knowledge bank of the world is very useful.
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Posted on 01-23-18 05:30:06 AM Link | Quote
I've played all of the ZC Randomizers multiple times, gravitating mostly towards Pokemon Warrior and Mirage Island.

I've played Super Metroid rando a fair bit in the past.

I usually do a LttP rando at least once a week, with Entrance/Keysanity being my type of choice(and things can go very badly, like yesterday)
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Posted on 01-23-18 06:33:24 AM Link | Quote
I switched over to doing a lotta ALTTP randomizers after I kinda quit speedrunning the main game. They're fun, but I'm actually pretty terrible at them compared to most other people... I mostly play Standard and Open because I'm boring and I actually find Entrance Randomizer too overwhelming/exhausting... Triforce Hunt is cool, too, but I mostly like racing that one. And yeah, I wouldn't recommend ALTTP randomizer unless you've beaten the game a fair number of times and can navigate it pretty well -- you can probably beat one if you don't know where all the chests/NPC items are from memory, but knowing that kinda stuff definitely helps. Knowing how many keys are in each dungeon is good too... as does knowing how to do most of the combat with lower equipment, including bosses, especially if you get stuck without a lot of safety items (heart containers, magic powder, bottles, net, red+blue mail, better swords) early on...

Zelda 1's is pretty great, too, although I don't play that nearly as much as I used to :< I'd like to start playing it again at some point... it's pretty hard to me, but not for the reasons you'd think (I'm pretty terrible at Zelda 1's combat).

I also used to do Pokémon Randomizers quite a bit -- again, another one I'd like to try playing again sometimes, even if the "fad" kinda died down at some point...

I did a couple Zelda 2 randomizers, but I'm not likely to do them again... I ain't good enough at Zelda 2. Usually the way those would end is I'd either end up lost on Death Mountain forever, or I'd run into a big wall of Dairas and die a bunch. Or both. Sometimes both.
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Posted on 01-23-18 07:50:56 AM Link | Quote
Originally posted by Eppy37
Pokemon Warrior


That's not one I've heard of before :o
Lunaria

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Posted on 01-23-18 11:39:48 AM Link | Quote
It's... different. You can find it here, but it's not one I would recommend to people who are not already into ZC quests, and even then there are some caveats. Most of HoF's "randomizers" have a tendency of not focusing on the appeal of a randomizer much, instead being these really large 10h+ gauntlets with hundreds of items to locate. The ones I linked earlier in the thread are the exception to that.

My issue with them is that they usually don't promote much replay value, since they are so long they are a huge time investment to play through. And since the item pool is very big with lots of similar items you will generally get some good stuff at some point early on and then be set for the rest of the game. It kinda turns the entire thing more into a slog to go through the hundred of dungeons (yes, some of them have more than a hundred dungeons).

LoP is somewhat interesting in thematics and has some interesting ideas, but it suffers quite a bit in the same regards as, say, randomizer outlands.
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Posted on 01-25-18 02:05:39 AM Link | Quote
I've actually been poking around with the Zelda 1 randomizer quite a bit and have been having a lot of fun with it. I even found a YouTube channel where someone posted a tournament. Rambly I think you were in on that? I remember seeing your name in the first vid I watched!

I'm mostly playing the random Zeldas for fun, though I'd like to really randomize it, and maybe get a few friends to join me in sharing notes, just for fun. :3

I'm gonna have to find that LttP randomizer too. I'm curious now!
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Posted on 01-25-18 03:54:44 AM (last edited by Lunaria at 01-25-18 03:55:09 AM) Link | Quote
http://vt.alttp.run
Note that the site block any https requests... for some dumb reason.
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Posted on 01-25-18 04:45:52 PM Link | Quote
Originally posted by Lunaria
http://vt.alttp.run
Note that the site block any https requests... for some dumb reason.

It's so the NSA can use their dataharvesting to get free ROMs of Kamigami no Triforce
Rick
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Posted on 01-30-18 01:30:19 AM Link | Quote
Speaking of that LttP randomizer...

I just finished watching that really tight match on YouTube between Acmlm and ChristosOwen. Happened across it and DAMN. What a great showing from both people.

It makes me wanna try, but reminds me how I'd get my wholly newbie ass kicked left and right. XD
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Jul - Gaming - Randomizers New poll - New thread - New reply




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