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09-20-17 01:29:15 AM

Jul - Gaming - Why MineCraft (or any game) seems to get stale... New poll - New thread - New reply
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brian151
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Posted on 12-21-16 05:33:15 PM Link | Quote
alright, I honestly didn't know what to call this...

So, I just saw this post in a thread on mcforum:
http://www.minecraftforum.net/forums/minecraft-discussion/survival-mode/290024-your-first-time-playing-minecraft-ssp?comment=22

I'd say he's pretty much hit the nail right on the head, I do question some of those statements, but the general message of it all is pretty accurate.

People got used to playing the game in a very specific way, instead of just... playing it normally. Everyone builds/plans these massive bases/farms (that INDEED are like doomsday shelters). They also just copy everyone's design or stick with the same design all the time.

The whole point was to play it your way, at your pace, to create what you want, and just to have fun. Now we all worry about how many resources we need to grind to build this AMAZING castle that occupies a few chunks of land. We cut entire MOUNTAINS out of the way to do this, and then we terraform the land so it still looks pretty. We obsess over how quickly we can obtain the new blocks/items/mobs added by a new update. We try from the START to find a certain biome. Even if our build styles differ, we've adapted to playing the game by some rule book that it was never designed to have. Sure, some updates have chnaged/removed/added things in ways we didn't like, and that significantly altered how the game works from when we first started. But we also did this to ourselves, we got all tied up trying to play the game the "RIGHT" way, that we forgot how to even ENJOY it.

I'd say this applies to any game, and even entire genres... we get used to the universal routine to beat them that we don't focus on enjoying them. (and well, some devs also just make horribly grindy games... *cough* POKEMON *cough*) Even sandbox and highly mod-friendly games are falling victim, though, because everyone basically does the same thing, but in different flavors. It does get pretty stale after a while.

Any further discussion is more than welcome (:
StapleButter
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Posted on 12-21-16 06:29:06 PM Link | Quote
well, the griefs I have with Minecraft in particular, are that... it's becoming too complex for its own. it may just be that I'm not into the RPG world. I rarely used things like potions or enchantments.

on the other hand, I, well, lost interest. the game was cool back then when I had discovered it. but now... once I find enough materials and shit to be comfortable, there's little incentive to continue.

there's more incentive on multiplayer servers, but it only really works if there are multiple players motivated. when you're the only one who still cares, it well, doesn't work. and it kind of screams "you are a nolife".
brian151
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Posted on 12-21-16 10:06:38 PM Link | Quote
eh, minecraft is still mostly sandbox, and there's always creative mode (;

but, yeah, totally understand
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Posted on 12-22-16 02:40:11 PM Link | Quote
Hm, Minecraft never really got stale for me, I've never completely lost interest in it. I also never took it too seriously, though. I always just do my own thing, some underground bases and such, nothing huge. And even after an update, I could go a long time without encountering the new stuff. That said, a big part of Minecraft has always been socializing for me, I just don't play single player.

So, I love Minecraft and I could very easily get back into it, but... I don't want to. On the current list of things I'd like to be doing, Minecraft is waaay down. It eats too much time without return and I can spend my time on better things right now!
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Posted on 12-22-16 03:34:52 PM Link | Quote
I never hated Minecraft. It looked fun but I was never able to get into it.
Lunaria

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Posted on 12-22-16 04:24:04 PM Link | Quote
My biggest beef with minecraft is that mojang don't seem to even have a basic grasp on game design. Every update and new feature added just showcases how little the team understands what playing experience will come from their decisions. And their idea of how "balancing" games work seems to be based around the same logic used by arm-chair game designers on reddit.

Take something like the underwater dungeon they added a couple of updates ago. It seem to be something of a combat encounter to clear, and there were some functionality added to help movement and such in water (with enchants). But moving around underwater is still essentially a giant slog, there is very little enjoyment when it comes to conquering a monument, and the reward itself is fairly minor.

At the end of the day the dungeon ends up as throw-away content: something you'll experience once then you'll probably not ever want to bother with it again. Because the experience itself provided by it had no substance. And there really seems to be no reflection on this either, since the woodland mansion added more recently seem to be the same exact thing. Yet these are things quite a bit of dev time was put towards. *shrug*


I can't say I haven't gotten my money's worth out of minecraft, I have played it a ton and most of that time was enjoyed. But the idea OF minecraft is still more compelling than minecraft itself is. I want to build things and then let others see and experience it. Yet multiplayer has sort of never ended up working like that.
brian151
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Posted on 12-22-16 06:40:16 PM Link | Quote
Yeah...

The level of reward for it is debate-able, but yeah...I agree that it doesn't entirely pay well for the trouble taken to claim it. Namely with sponges, because it becomes an infinite prismarine source afterwards if you convert it.

most of the dungeons are lackluster. mods have way better ones, this is undeniable.

I mainly play it for the build, not the survival challenge, so... lol. I add mods if I want adventure.

Alright then. Multiplayer has been flawed since its inception. I'm actually glad about the combat update changing cooldowns, though... it does suck for mob combat, but I have always hated PVP 'cuz it was all about mouse-spamming (A: not a skill, B: can cause health problems with wrists) Ofc, I long before the combat update adopted a combat strategy that seldom relies on spam-clicks (especially against creepers)
Lunaria

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Posted on 12-22-16 06:51:55 PM Link | Quote
Personally I find combat to be better after the combat update in single player. And I really don't give a damn about pvp to be honest, it's not as if you can't play older builds of minecraft if you don't like the changes: They are all avalible easily through the launcher.

That being said, combat in minecraft is still rather mediocre, and it will probably remain that way as long as the "melee" weapons uses hit-scan primarily. The entire thing just needs to be fleshed out a whole lot more for it be interesting....


In fact, that's true about a lot of things, really. Many features in minecraft are critically underdeveloped and could use a lot more expanding. Hurm..., I should probably not go on, I could rant about things in minecraft ad-infinitum.
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Posted on 12-22-16 08:10:39 PM Link | Quote
Sponges. Those are useless unless either the area you want to clear is small, or unless you spam them all over the place fast enough. But eh. Creative-style sponges would be weird in the current Minecraft.


I play multiplayer MC for the sake of building things, but I prefer building with survival-mode constraints. It's more, dunno, 'realistic'? If you go for creative mode, people just build huge impossible shit.
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Posted on 12-24-16 03:47:04 AM (last edited by Dorito at 12-24-16 03:47:30 AM) Link | Quote

That first feeling is of discovery and wonder, of letting the world shape you as much as you shape it. It's not about tricks, efficiency, loot, encyclopedic knowledge, forward thinking, and huge builds. It's about just enjoying where you are and what you can do right now. Enjoy what you're doing now instead of thinking about what you've done in other worlds, what you'd rather be doing, or what you'd rather have built. Stay in right now instead of always wanting the fantasies of the future.


This died for me a long time ago. Once you see beyond the surface and dive in too deep, you can't look at the surface the same way again. You're always going to look beyond it because you know what's below. You can't unsee things, right?

At least me for me, anyway.

I've dumped a lot of time into Minecraft, starting from the pre-indev days all the way up to the first post-alpha release. At a certain point, it becomes the same thing again, and as someone with limited creative juices (such that I only uploaded 7 levels in Super Mario Maker but it's still my personal 2015 GOTY), Minecraft only had so much mileage. And even as StapleButter said, it's getting too complex for its own good, I feel. All those RPG bells and whistles just feel arbitrary.

And even without that, I can't continue to play the same game consistently save for one exception



and its modular nature (that is, being able to play either for 5-10 minutes or 3 hours) more easily facilitates this.

Minecraft asks for much more of your time to explore, learn, imagine, and build. It's very easy to burn out, boot up the game one day, ask what am I still doing?, and close the game and never open it again.

I had my time with Minecraft and it was good, but I've moved on to other activities, hobbies, and games since then. 2016 was a shitshow except for video games. Some godlike games came out this year, and if I'm not mistaken, I heard somewhere that there has never been a better time to be playing video games.
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Posted on 12-24-16 09:23:58 PM Link | Quote
I remember when Minecraft multiplayer test came out and it was just the most fun thing to go nuts, since nothing could hurt you, items could be dropped and picked up to restore all durability, there wasn't any tedium with the stupid health bar. The game respected your time; if you wanted to build something, you could accomplish it (as long as you remembered to drop your tools occasionally ) fairly easily, using a constant effort. There were also some dupe tricks, admittedly, but it felt better.

Later versions started to disrespect your time; no longer could you just run, you had a "hunger bar". Basic movement drained it -- even standing still slowly ate away at it. Health didn't just recover. Your tools had to be made fresh each time. Later you could make better tools, but they required nebulous "experience", and the ways to get it were scaled back; no longer could you build a huge structure to farm it, you had to manually hunt and kill everything. Why punish people for making huge contraptions?

After a while, it went from "I need to make X, and I do that by getting Y", to "I need to make X, but I have to get Y, I have to make sure Z is full, I have to set up a farm for A, B, and C to keep Z full, I have to build D E F and G to make my life easier". It became a chore. Which is great if you're a NEET, but not really great if you have something to do and don't want to waste hours on maintenance tasks.

Minecraft mods are even worse for this. Hope you enjoy making the same item 20 times, following a five-layer-deep tier list.


TF2 and Rocket League are good counter-examples, because... well, at least until recently in TF2, you can just drop into a game and play. There's no setup, there's no tedium, it's just "push button, have fun". You can just play the game. You can quit the game when you want, basically. The game respects your time by minimizing the amount of time you spend doing things that are boring.


I would argue Terraria is in the respects-time front, because a lot of Terraria's progression is "fun". Crafting is fairly simple, there's a steady stream of progression you can indulge in whenever you want with boss summons... It is a little like Minecraft in that you still have to do resource gathering, but you can also just take your possessions from world to world and start anew.


(And on a side note, you aren't going to see someone showing up in TF2 or Rocket League who can ruin all the progress you've made over the last five weeks in an instant. You might run into a griefer, but your experience with them only lasts as long as one game or until you leave the server, as opposed to "well, time to go roll everything back for an hour")
brian151
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Posted on 12-25-16 12:16:25 AM Link | Quote
Welp, didn't expect this thread to just explode... lol

Don't think I really have much more to say.

I agree the tech trees in mods are ridiculous, though. And that's really an understatement. Modding in itself isn't all too fun, anymore, and has fallen so far behind the game (most of which being forge has become the "only official/legitimate" way to mod. Forge is another whole super-complex program in itself, that truthfully only advanced mods even NEED)

I also agree with the "can't unsee" thing...

Griefers are a problem, won't deny that. Most of the servers I joined had griefers and/or hackers running amok... The only good servers I found have shut-down. Most of my multiplayer games have been with friends, only... In general, multiplayer mode has too many problems. This is a problem plagued by just about any game, but the severity varies... Simple fact is some people are assholes that have nothing better to do than ruin the game for others. I haven't played ANY multiplayer game without that problem. Even some of my friends could be dicks at times... And then there's the games that are simply POORLY programmed...
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Posted on 12-26-16 03:29:48 PM Link | Quote
I think you hit the nail on the head on a lot of the issues that stem from current game structure of minecraft Xk, and I can't help but agree on the assessment of minecraft mods. I have tried to look around for mods that actually add anything meaningful to the game other than progression for progressions sake, and there are few. But then, there are people who actually really like these mods too.


I'm still waiting for a minecraft "knock-off" to come out that is actually better than minecraft itself, you'd imagine it wouldn't be hard. But somehow it seems to be, most that come out are merely worse and try to capitalize on the minecraft fame. *sigh*
brian151
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Posted on 01-02-17 02:24:33 PM Link | Quote
Originally posted by Lunaria
I think you hit the nail on the head on a lot of the issues that stem from current game structure of minecraft Xk, and I can't help but agree on the assessment of minecraft mods. I have tried to look around for mods that actually add anything meaningful to the game other than progression for progressions sake, and there are few. But then, there are people who actually really like these mods too.


I'm still waiting for a minecraft "knock-off" to come out that is actually better than minecraft itself, you'd imagine it wouldn't be hard. But somehow it seems to be, most that come out are merely worse and try to capitalize on the minecraft fame. *sigh*


That he has.
One of my favorite mods was the Mine Little Brony mod (cuz, yeah, I'm a Brony)
I may try to upgrade it sometime, but I just can't grasp how the outdated code is working, and the decompiler isn't actually decompiling EVERYTHING right, either... I must say its performance took one hell of a dive after switching to Forge. I must agree "progression for progressions sake" You hit THAT nail right on the head. I think my problem WATCHING modded MineCraft stems from the fact that mods have a steep learning curve. We need more of the whimsical and fun mods again. (aside from lucky block variations everywhere) Some mods I feel WERE going in the right direction before dying or trying too hard to balance stuff: Buildcraft, Mine Little Brony, Crystal Dimension (no, not that ugly overrated piece of shit in orespawn, this was its own little mod, and looked way awesome, especially with shaders). Up to a point, most of the stuff PopularMMOs was reviewing seemed fun. However, now there's balancing systems or mods that are just too trendy or "meh". One mod I personally recommend aside from balance/performance/compatibility issues is the GraveStone mod by NightKosh. He seems to have gone MIA, though, concerning, being that he's from Russia. There are also two open source re-makes of the over-hyped and currently undelivered mod, Xycraft. Of those two, I'd say Hexcraft is my favorite. There hasn't been recent activity from their team, though. I really hope they don't either get C&D'd by Soarin, or try to over-balance stuff. However, I also hope they haven't just up and quit. Good mods are hard to find, but they are still out there.

Well, several people have started these clones and not finished them. The rest are vastly overrated copycats of either MC or each other, which sadly so many people fail to see. You'd think it's easy, but MC is probably among the more complex games EVER to be created. (and that's pretending the class structure wasn't a pain to navigate, you ever try decompiling with minecraft/mod coder pack?) procedural terrain generation (most of which is hard-coded, even despite the new structure blocks) , terrain editing, mob combat, farming, fishing, electricity, optional command line interface, multiplayer, chat, 3D, models are comprised of a not-pretty mixture of java and opengl (java interface for it, that is) code (only now starting to migrate to JSON, but there's still the java/opengl backend), inventory system, tabbed creative inventory system, permissions system, and etc... Re-implementing minecraft's features in any engine/language is no small feat. Making it perform well is ANOTHER challenge. If I may propose this theory, though, i think a Nintendo DS could probably process a more basic edition of MC. Just Saying, I cannot say I recommend this. I kinda have plans to make a MC clone at some time in the future, but don't get your hopes up. I have quite a few projects relating to the cloning/porting of games as-is, and MineCraft will likely be the single most difficult one I attempt. It's not currently planned, and I'd be more likely to try porting/re-making DP (not necessarily in 3D) than to clone the complexity that is MineCraft. I do have ONE mc-related coding project in the form of a model viewer, but my rendering system (it's software based, and I didn't program it, obviously) doesn't z-sort well (or scale textures... but I can easily make a system for that), and MC's entity models are proving quite the pain to actually extract because they use a lot of trigonometry and 3d transforms to keep shit in-line. That said, making a good MC clone? PAIN IN THE ASS? Dare I show my ugly and imperfect mess of code attempting to render the Ocelot? LOL

tl:dr (mc clone):
yes, most try just to capitalize on the fame, the rest probably become overwhelmed by the enormous complexity of making the MC engine from scratch, or with another tool/engine.
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Posted on 02-15-17 09:41:51 PM Link | Quote
I still dork around in Minecraft from time to time. I just enjoy running around exploring some and working on trying to make a full stock for the shelves. It's not something I play all the time, but I do come back to it when time permits and just enjoy things for what they are, even if I am doing the same thing over and over again.

(Though as far as Terraria goes, I just never got into it because I never felt like trying to take the time and learning a whole new complicated system. It was like "okay, I understand Minecraft, now I have to understand every little nuance of this game and I was like ehhhhhh, that's just too much for me right now. Still is. :X)
brian151
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Posted on 02-15-17 10:04:11 PM Link | Quote
Yep.

Oh, i totally agree... Terraria has too steep a learning curve for my tastes.
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