Register - Login
Views: 95408599
Main - Memberlist - Active users - Calendar - Wiki - IRC Chat - Online users
Ranks - Rules/FAQ - Stats - Latest Posts - Color Chart - Smilies
10-15-18 03:44:07 PM

Jul - The Cutting Room Floor - Development notes New poll - New thread - New reply
Pages: 1 2Next newer thread | Next older thread
Liliana
"A horrible person". That's what it says. "A horrible person."

We weren't even testing for that.


Level: NaN


Posts: 2158/-3841
EXP: NaN
For next: 0

Since: 07-23-07


Since last post: 6.0 years
Last activity: 6.0 years

Posted on 01-27-11 07:08:10 PM Link | Quote
Creating a new thread because this topic isn't really worth hijacking the other one for.

Still, there seem to be a number of people opposed to the idea... I know X is the dictator who can do anything, but if the userbase doesn't want this it may not be a smart move. If anything, it should be discussed thouroughly beforehand.
Teflon
Member
Level: 56


Posts: 22/874
EXP: 1397566
For next: 610

Since: 10-12-10


Since last post: 1.0 years
Last activity: 258 days

Posted on 01-27-11 07:12:44 PM (last edited by Teflon at 01-27-11 07:13 PM) Link | Quote
I'd prefer that TCRF stay focused on just unused content in games, but I wouldn't mind if some people added development notes on pages as long as they covered informative material (no shit like "his leg has a different color in this pre-release screenshot") and the dev notes page isn't significantly bigger than the main article. I'd make a few exceptions for the latter rule, such as OoT, but most of them should follow it.
Nicole

Disk-kun
Level: 140


Posts: 2267/6444
EXP: 33198380
For next: 88025

Since: 07-06-07

Pronouns: she/her
From: Boston, MA

Since last post: 25 days
Last activity: 1 day

Posted on 01-27-11 09:12:08 PM Link | Quote
(quoted from the Weird Discoveries thread)
Originally posted by Aeonic Butterfly
If we were to just put up screens that were relevant to the final ROM? (Again, Rooms 121 and 120 to the Debug, and Ganon's Castle appearing in A+B Development)

This is the kind of thing I thought was already allowed- that is, if development content is relevant and helps explain unused content in the final ROM (or prototypes) then it can go on the main pages...

If we can avoid the "blurry magazine screenshot + wild speculation" type of thing I don't have too much opposition to having some development content on a subpage, in some cases at least it can be a clue for someone who comes along later to find leftovers in the final.
Xkeeper

Level: 244


Posts: 18764/23358
EXP: 229209135
For next: 978131

Since: 07-03-07

Pronouns: they/them, she/her, etc.

Since last post: 4 days
Last activity: 2 days

Posted on 01-27-11 09:18:16 PM Link | Quote
I don't really see an issue with having development notes as long as the images are decent quality and there isn't wild speculation. Decent summaries of what's different between the screenshot and the final are fine, wild speculation is just stupid.

To use Gaspar as an example, the interview with a developer who said he was considered as an 8th character could be noted as lending a bit of legitimacy to the bug that puts him in that slot.
GlitterBerri

Translator
Level: 37


Posts: 83/339
EXP: 335933
For next: 2320

Since: 11-09-10


Since last post: 3.0 years
Last activity: 1.0 years

Posted on 01-27-11 09:24:19 PM Link | Quote
Absolutely, I agree. I think the information on development notes pages should be sourced so it's not just wild speculation. Either screenshots plainly showing something like the reed from Ocarina of Time being a working item in development or direct quotes from the creators, no hearsay. AeonicButterfly and I can work on preparing a sample page for Ocarina of Time and we can see how that goes and present it to people to see what everyone thinks, how's that?
RahanAkero

The End of the World
Level: 54


Posts: 245/754
EXP: 1179695
For next: 54175

Since: 11-25-09

From: Staten Island, NY

Since last post: 1.0 years
Last activity: 13 days

Posted on 01-27-11 09:25:01 PM Link | Quote
Originally posted by Imajin
(If we can avoid the "blurry magazine screenshot + wild speculation" type of thing I don't have too much opposition to having some development content on a subpage, in some cases at least it can be a clue for someone who comes along later to find leftovers in the final.


This. I think a "Development:Game Name (System)" namespace would be interesting, but only if we have enough actual development information to back up the information. Not to blatantly insult another site, but if it starts to look like something you'd find on X-Cult (a random lump of magazine scans without direction or explanation) then the page is unwanted and unneeded. As little speculation as possible, and the idea could work.
YK

Permabanned!
At some point you just have to cease and de-racist.

Level: NaN


Posts: 139/-665
EXP: NaN
For next: 0

Since: 06-25-10

From: Oregon

Since last post: 7.0 years
Last activity: 6.0 years

Posted on 01-27-11 09:29:40 PM Link | Quote
Originally posted by RahanAkero
Originally posted by Imajin
(If we can avoid the "blurry magazine screenshot + wild speculation" type of thing I don't have too much opposition to having some development content on a subpage, in some cases at least it can be a clue for someone who comes along later to find leftovers in the final.


This. I think a "Development:Game Name (System)" namespace would be interesting, but only if we have enough actual development information to back up the information. Not to blatantly insult another site, but if it starts to look like something you'd find on X-Cult (a random lump of magazine scans without direction or explanation) then the page is unwanted and unneeded. As little speculation as possible, and the idea could work.


Agreed, absolutely. Yes, this *could* work, but we'll have to do so carefully, as nobody here wants loads of worthless speculation. "OMG this old magazine screenshot has a background slightly darker than in the game! BETA!", for instance. (That said, guessing as to where something unused in-game could have been intended isn't a big deal... but the same guesses based on very early screenshots and such... no.)
Teflon
Member
Level: 56


Posts: 23/874
EXP: 1397566
For next: 610

Since: 10-12-10


Since last post: 1.0 years
Last activity: 258 days

Posted on 01-27-11 09:40:42 PM Link | Quote
Originally posted by YK

Agreed, absolutely. Yes, this *could* work, but we'll have to do so carefully, as nobody here wants loads of worthless speculation. "OMG this old magazine screenshot has a background slightly darker than in the game! BETA!", for instance. (That said, guessing as to where something unused in-game could have been intended isn't a big deal... but the same guesses based on very early screenshots and such... no.)


So basically you don't want something like a magazine scan showing a completely unused area and the writer trying to speculate where it would go even though there doesn't seem to be anywhere it would fit? Sounds good. That type of shit is irritating.
Rick
M'Lord, there's a knife in your head!
Level: 143


Posts: 2372/7402
EXP: 35821066
For next: 10742

Since: 02-15-10

From: Maine

Since last post: 10 days
Last activity: 19 hours

Posted on 01-27-11 10:50:06 PM Link | Quote
I just kind of realized that I did this sort of thing with Final Fight 2 a little...I think.

I scanned a Nintendo Power magazine of Final Fight 2 in a very early state and posted it on the wiki. I'm not sure if it fits this criteria (it sounds like it by the current discussion?), but no one really made a big deal about it or something.

I don't see why not.
BMF54123

Rhea Snaketail
Slightly frazzled...
Level: 135


Posts: 3601/5865
EXP: 28838979
For next: 496026

Since: 07-03-07

From: Neither here nor there.

Since last post: 5 days
Last activity: 1 day

Posted on 01-28-11 02:09:04 AM Link | Quote
(copied from the other thread because durrrr)

I'm only going to okay this if:

A) The content has its own dedicated namespace, like Notes: and Proto: (unused stuff remaining in the game always has the highest priority and should always be the first thing you see)
B) We develop some heavy-duty rules/guidelines and actually enforce them

I'm mostly worried about B) since we already have a crapload of sub-par pages on the wiki that haven't been touched in months. :|
YK

Permabanned!
At some point you just have to cease and de-racist.

Level: NaN


Posts: 140/-665
EXP: NaN
For next: 0

Since: 06-25-10

From: Oregon

Since last post: 7.0 years
Last activity: 6.0 years

Posted on 01-28-11 02:47:52 AM (last edited by YK at 01-28-11 03:02 AM) Link | Quote
Originally posted by Waffle Ryebread
(copied from the other thread because durrrr)

I'm only going to okay this if:

A) The content has its own dedicated namespace, like Notes: and Proto: (unused stuff remaining in the game always has the highest priority and should always be the first thing you see)
B) We develop some heavy-duty rules/guidelines and actually enforce them

I'm mostly worried about B) since we already have a crapload of sub-par pages on the wiki that haven't been touched in months. :|


Sometime soon, we should make a coordinated effort to clean up those lackluster pages: either they're improved, or they're gone. One big offender is the Super Bonk page... it's terrible, and has been since basically the very beginning of the wiki. It mentions unused music and a debug mode, but says nothing about how to access anything, and despite my occasional efforts to get the page worked on, it remains largely untouched. Because it's such a skeleton of a page, I can't even update it myself, because there's just not enough info for me to do so.

Additional thoughts: Standards... we really need to get them worked out. As much as I like the wiki, and have no desire to go all "Wikipedia", we *do* need some hard-and-fast rules. For one... I'm not totally "NPOV" or anything, but one thing that always turned me off on some sites which would otherwise have been very enjoyable, is their overly snarky commentary. Zany VG Quotes, for instance, tended to open every section with a snarky remark about the game sucking or something. Plus, if you actually *liked* a game, seeing an intro bitching about it on a site that otherwise has no reason to can actually be off-putting. We're here to document unused content; we're not a game review website. Opinions on a game's quality don't belong here. If a game sucks, I'll put something less overly critical, such as "...was generally regarded as poor" or something, rather than "This game is a steaming pile of shit and GameCompany should feel bad for making it."

Also, humor/breezy language. Some may just say I'm "too serious", but I have no problem with well-placed jokes and sarcasm... but sometimes... well, for instance, let's say, someone listing the effects of a debug menu decides to put something silly under "Cancel". Now, it's blatantly obvious what it does, so there's no real need to say "Closes the menu". So something like "Yeah, this should be obvious" seems like nice deadpan humor. "Choosing this option blows up your Playstation", by contrast, seems amateurish and dumb. I don't want to be humorless like Wikipedia, but I don't want us to come across as overly juvenile, either.

Of course, ultimately this is all at the whims of BMF and Xkeeper, but that's my two cents.
Rick
M'Lord, there's a knife in your head!
Level: 143


Posts: 2391/7402
EXP: 35821066
For next: 10742

Since: 02-15-10

From: Maine

Since last post: 10 days
Last activity: 19 hours

Posted on 01-28-11 02:52:58 AM (last edited by Rick at 01-28-11 02:53 AM) Link | Quote
Originally posted by YK
Originally posted by Waffle Ryebread
(copied from the other thread because durrrr)

I'm only going to okay this if:

A) The content has its own dedicated namespace, like Notes: and Proto: (unused stuff remaining in the game always has the highest priority and should always be the first thing you see)
B) We develop some heavy-duty rules/guidelines and actually enforce them

I'm mostly worried about B) since we already have a crapload of sub-par pages on the wiki that haven't been touched in months. :|


Sometime soon, we should make a coordinated effort to clean up those lackluster pages: either they're improved, or they're gone. One big offender is the Super Bonk page... it's terrible, and has been since basically the very beginning of the wiki. It mentions unused music and a debug mode, but says nothing about how to access anything, and despite my occasional efforts to get the page worked on, it remains largely untouched. Because it's such a skeleton of a page, I can't even update it myself, because there's just not enough info for me to do so.


I second this. I could even go make a list of pages that need cleanup. I can think of Contra and Perfect Dark off the top of my head. Perhaps the Wayback Machine on Archive saves files?
Xkeeper

Level: 244


Posts: 18768/23358
EXP: 229209135
For next: 978131

Since: 07-03-07

Pronouns: they/them, she/her, etc.

Since last post: 4 days
Last activity: 2 days

Posted on 01-28-11 03:02:23 AM Link | Quote
Super Bunk is BMF's forte and he's about as energetic to update the Wiki as I am to actually work on it.
BMF54123

Rhea Snaketail
Slightly frazzled...
Level: 135


Posts: 3602/5865
EXP: 28838979
For next: 496026

Since: 07-03-07

From: Neither here nor there.

Since last post: 5 days
Last activity: 1 day

Posted on 01-28-11 03:12:42 AM Link | Quote
I have little desire to do anything but talk on IRC/Skype or play Minecraft lately. I blame seasonal depression.

Hopefully things will get better once the days start getting longer.
Teflon
Member
Level: 56


Posts: 24/874
EXP: 1397566
For next: 610

Since: 10-12-10


Since last post: 1.0 years
Last activity: 258 days

Posted on 01-28-11 03:24:38 AM Link | Quote
Originally posted by YK
words


I'd also like a rule that states you shouldn't be editing a page just to add alt text to pictures. A few days ago some guy named The GMoD signed up and all he did was just put unfunny alt text because "of OCD" or some dumb shit like that.
YK

Permabanned!
At some point you just have to cease and de-racist.

Level: NaN


Posts: 141/-665
EXP: NaN
For next: 0

Since: 06-25-10

From: Oregon

Since last post: 7.0 years
Last activity: 6.0 years

Posted on 01-28-11 03:28:18 AM Link | Quote
Originally posted by Teflon
Originally posted by YK



I'd also like a rule that states you shouldn't be editing a page just to add alt text to pictures. A few days ago some guy named The GMoD signed up and all he did was just put unfunny alt text because "of OCD" or some dumb shit like that.


Agreed. We've actually brought up that same point a while back, when a user named "MitchZer0" basically did nothing but add "humorous" image captions. I actually like silly image captions, myself, since they're basically just a little Easter egg, but I generally make it a point not tot add them unless I'm doing something else more significant with the page.
Flying Omelette
Member
Green-handled, pearl-encrusted abelnuski
Level: 33


Posts: 238/257
EXP: 228329
For next: 850

Since: 05-19-10

From: Ohio

Since last post: 7.0 years
Last activity: 7.0 years

Posted on 01-28-11 06:51:29 AM Link | Quote
Originally posted by YK
Originally posted by Waffle Ryebread
(copied from the other thread because durrrr)

I'm only going to okay this if:

A) The content has its own dedicated namespace, like Notes: and Proto: (unused stuff remaining in the game always has the highest priority and should always be the first thing you see)
B) We develop some heavy-duty rules/guidelines and actually enforce them

I'm mostly worried about B) since we already have a crapload of sub-par pages on the wiki that haven't been touched in months. :|


Sometime soon, we should make a coordinated effort to clean up those lackluster pages: either they're improved, or they're gone. One big offender is the Super Bonk page... it's terrible, and has been since basically the very beginning of the wiki. It mentions unused music and a debug mode, but says nothing about how to access anything, and despite my occasional efforts to get the page worked on, it remains largely untouched. Because it's such a skeleton of a page, I can't even update it myself, because there's just not enough info for me to do so.

Additional thoughts: Standards... we really need to get them worked out. As much as I like the wiki, and have no desire to go all "Wikipedia", we *do* need some hard-and-fast rules. For one... I'm not totally "NPOV" or anything, but one thing that always turned me off on some sites which would otherwise have been very enjoyable, is their overly snarky commentary. Zany VG Quotes, for instance, tended to open every section with a snarky remark about the game sucking or something. Plus, if you actually *liked* a game, seeing an intro bitching about it on a site that otherwise has no reason to can actually be off-putting. We're here to document unused content; we're not a game review website. Opinions on a game's quality don't belong here. If a game sucks, I'll put something less overly critical, such as "...was generally regarded as poor" or something, rather than "This game is a steaming pile of shit and GameCompany should feel bad for making it."

Also, humor/breezy language. Some may just say I'm "too serious", but I have no problem with well-placed jokes and sarcasm... but sometimes... well, for instance, let's say, someone listing the effects of a debug menu decides to put something silly under "Cancel". Now, it's blatantly obvious what it does, so there's no real need to say "Closes the menu". So something like "Yeah, this should be obvious" seems like nice deadpan humor. "Choosing this option blows up your Playstation", by contrast, seems amateurish and dumb. I don't want to be humorless like Wikipedia, but I don't want us to come across as overly juvenile, either.

Of course, ultimately this is all at the whims of BMF and Xkeeper, but that's my two cents.


Wikipedia's original article on the SNES game, Equinox, was basically just a GameFAQs-quality review and even included a racist gem along the lines of, "Like most games that weren't made in Japan, the graphics are gaudy".
Taryn
Rest In Peace
1987-2014



Level: 194


Posts: 11421/14742
EXP: 103302723
For next: 240371

Since: 09-01-09

From: Seattle

Since last post: 6.0 years
Last activity: 6.0 years

Posted on 01-28-11 10:52:28 AM Link | Quote
Originally posted by Teflon
I'd also like a rule that states you shouldn't be editing a page just to add alt text to pictures. A few days ago some guy named The GMoD signed up and all he did was just put unfunny alt text because "of OCD" or some dumb shit like that.


OCD can make people do some weird stuff. I used to have a rather severe case a few months ago. Basically, an OCD sufferer has urges to do really bizarre things (editing a wiki could be one, as could blinking a prime number of times at a mirror, or touching something with both hands and not just one, or doing a routine in an exact order, including scrubbing your hands exactly 21 times while washing them, which must always precede squeezing the toothpaste to the exact centre of the toothbrush bristles). And, well, OCD sufferers think that there are disastrous consequences to ignoring those urges. Like they might think they'll die, or suffer forever in hell, or their cat will die, or they'll lose their arms, or something, all because of whatever silly ritual.
Teflon
Member
Level: 56


Posts: 26/874
EXP: 1397566
For next: 610

Since: 10-12-10


Since last post: 1.0 years
Last activity: 258 days

Posted on 01-28-11 02:02:56 PM Link | Quote
Question: could this "development notes" section be used to document games that weren't released, like Sunman or Jazz Jackrabbit 3? Like, the main page shows unused stuff in Sunman, while the "Dev Notes" page is a full breakdown of Sunman?
Liliana
"A horrible person". That's what it says. "A horrible person."

We weren't even testing for that.


Level: NaN


Posts: 2160/-3841
EXP: NaN
For next: 0

Since: 07-23-07


Since last post: 6.0 years
Last activity: 6.0 years

Posted on 01-28-11 02:04:20 PM Link | Quote
Unreleased games, I think, are way out of our scope. There's other sites like unseen64 for this kind of stuff.
Pages: 1 2Next newer thread | Next older thread
Jul - The Cutting Room Floor - Development notes New poll - New thread - New reply




Rusted Logic

Acmlmboard - commit 5d36857 [2018-03-03]
©2000-2018 Acmlm, Xkeeper, Inuyasha, et al.

29 database queries, 3 query cache hits.
Query execution time: 0.227405 seconds
Script execution time: 0.039291 seconds
Total render time: 0.266696 seconds
Memory used: 786432