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10-22-18 06:31:53 AM
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Jamie
Posts: 64/69
Happy birthday maor! I know this guy from several other places so yeah, I'll see if I can get him here more often maybe?
Xkeeper
Posts: 23358/23358
Originally posted by RanAS
Generally, separating the CSS from the HTML (and making sure to keep the css file organized) makes it look better.

Though I will admit HTML5 is a bit inconsistent at times with stuff like this. Example: width="99" attributes are deprecated on everything except canvas, embed, iframe, img, input, object and video. And most of those require you to use the width="" attribute, rather than supporting {width: 99px;}.

It makes sense, because on some level the canvas is less a styling issue and more a core part of that element. A table without styling will still be a table; a canvas without styling might be a 1×1 useless square, or whatever ... It makes some sense, I guess.

Originally posted by Dprotp
so i bought a 2015 chevy bolt today*

spent 3 hours transferring items + a shoe a minor had assaulted me with 11 hours down south in san diego, as well as routing front and rear dash cam cables

i just ... need to find a place to charge it. fuckin apartments don't have an outlet and my office won't have my account approved for charging until midday monday

*what led to this was my current car's rear suspension getting even more shitty that the rear wheels lost traction on a simple left turn after driving over a manhole cover

i've self-taught myself how to counter-steer to work with this traction loss but it got to a point where i just ... would rather like to live i guess

I'd consider a pure electric, but charging one is not really doable for me (apartment living, woohoo). Plus being able to actually drive long distances is nice, since I kind of live in the middle of fucking nowhere in terms of actual things to do.

40 MPG isn't the best any more, but it's still pretty good
Dprotp
Posts: 3061/3061
so i bought a 2015 chevy bolt today*

spent 3 hours transferring items + a shoe a minor had assaulted me with 11 hours down south in san diego, as well as routing front and rear dash cam cables

i just ... need to find a place to charge it. fuckin apartments don't have an outlet and my office won't have my account approved for charging until midday monday

*what led to this was my current car's rear suspension getting even more shitty that the rear wheels lost traction on a simple left turn after driving over a manhole cover

i've self-taught myself how to counter-steer to work with this traction loss but it got to a point where i just ... would rather like to live i guess
ひりゅう
Posts: 13/15
Speaking of CSS, this is about the best I'm doing with simple layout from now.

Probably why I do hardware instead of software.
Jamie
Posts: 54/69
Thanks xk, that's literally what I did, booted them out of my life. At least I know that was the right thing to do

Also staple I hate that too, it happens on my iPhone SE, because all devs assumed that I have a huge phone.... slashdot does this
RanAS
Posts: 482/483
Generally, separating the CSS from the HTML (and making sure to keep the css file organized) makes it look better.

Though I will admit HTML5 is a bit inconsistent at times with stuff like this. Example: width="99" attributes are deprecated on everything except canvas, embed, iframe, img, input, object and video. And most of those require you to use the width="" attribute, rather than supporting {width: 99px;}.

Trying to do things in a non-hacky way can be a pain sometimes too. Like:

input:not([type=file]):not([type=radio]):not([type=checkbox]):not([type=submit]), button, select, textarea {...}
Nin★Collin
Posts: 164/166
I'm one of those people who use a slew of deprecated HTML attributes rather than touch CSS.

I honestly don't get why all "design-related" attributes are marked as *Removed in HTML5*. Some things just seem simpler to just use an attribute, rather than trying to do the same in CSS.
StapleButter
Posts: 501/501
Originally posted by Xkeeper
(On a side note, I absolutely loathe websites that disable any sort of scaling by the user! People who do this need to be smacked around.)

this.

worst is when they also shove some dumb overlay in your face, but the overlay is desktop-sized and the X button ends up offscreen (and stays offscreen no matter what you do), so you can't close it.

you can always use, say, µBlock to remove it, but if they are assholes and disable scroll while their overlay is open, well, you're screwed.


if I made my own web, it would purposefully not support any fixed/absolute/etc positioning, because those overlays have become the new version of popups (since browsers got good at blocking those).

maybe we should also go back to the days where non-trivial JS had to be written differently for each browser. that might stop the Hipsterscript shitshow?
Xkeeper
Posts: 23358/23358
Originally posted by Rambly
divs are situationally a little more useful I feel like (there's times when using a table feels like taking a machete to hedges). Like, when you just want a stylized little box like I've got here in my layout, I feel like divs are still the best at accomplishing that goal.

<div>s are perfectly fine for that sort of thing, and it's an instance where a tabular layout would be an annoying mess; at best you have a functionally useless table for one cell, at worst you have 8 different cells surrounding one box, with basically no flexibility.

Originally posted by Rambly
If you're actually trying to display something in a table format, though, with individual rows? Why not use tables. I get the importance of keeping content and style separate, and you can accomplish some gorgeous stuff with just CSS alone, but sometimes it gets pointless. Like, phpBB using divs for everything despite being displayed in a tabular format -- like, why. Forums are tabular. They'll literally be more coherent without CSS if you use tables. It's not like phpBB's HTML is very well-organized, either...

I assume that part of the reason is that you can smoothly rearrange non-tables (even if you intend to make them look like tables), while actual tables are a lot less flexible. I think the larger underlying problem is just that "responsive design" has sort of become this... madness, almost? Even in places where it doesn't make sense, it's being shoved in because it's one of the latest buzzwords. (Though even then, you can make an argument that a forum isn't really "tabular", too.)

The worst instance is a website that has actual tabular data, with many columns ... and guess what! Because of the way they designed the site, the tables are completely unreadable on mobile, because the site tries to be responsive and ends up failing.

(On a side note, I absolutely loathe websites that disable any sort of scaling by the user! People who do this need to be smacked around.)


Originally posted by Rambly
I guess I understand why these web design principles exist and they can lead to better flexibility and code that scans better

The more modern problem now is that so much web content is automatically generated by frameworks and toolkits, and most of them don't have any sort of controls for accessibility. While the W3C exists and tends to at least follow some accessibility practices — which are, of course, optional to use, but at least if you're hand-writing stuff, you're in control — most frameworks are just done by some open source group with the only guideline being "easier to churn out crap" ... it's how you go from having meaningful class and element names (and even many semantic HTML elements, now!) to useless garbage like "gH" or "a-C3n", on a webpage that's 30+ <div>s deep (and laggy as hell, to boot).

The old adage was that you separated content from presentation, but it really feels like the modern 'net is even worse about that than the days of tables were.


Originally posted by Jamie
Reposting since I accidentally the wrong thread.

Anyone else have people constantly judging you for the past actions and nothing else... I found out someone who was supposedly my friend made a channel in some Discord to circlejerk about me and 2016-2017, alongside some old friends of mine who I lost contact with at least over a year ago.

I literally held nothing against them, what gives them the right to this?

I have some bad news — they don't need a right to do anything. If they want to be an asshole, there's not much you can do to stop them. Just punt them out of your life as best you can and move on.
Jamie
Posts: 48/69
Reposting since I accidentally the wrong thread.

Anyone else have people constantly judging you for the past actions and nothing else... I found out someone who was supposedly my friend made a channel in some Discord to circlejerk about me and 2016-2017, alongside some old friends of mine who I lost contact with at least over a year ago.

I literally held nothing against them, what gives them the right to this? I didn't do anything that directly affected their lives yet was called a "manipulating asshole" by one specific individual. I don't remember intentionally being manipulative, sure I come across that way sometimes but what?

Anyway, enough complaining, I'm starting my break from college today for mid-term holiday. My IRL life has gone brilliantly the past few weeks
StapleButter
Posts: 499/501
I feel like people going "omg tables are bad" are a bit like saying that "hammers are bad" because people use screws more than nails (don't quote me on that, it's a silly example).

my point is that what matters is how adapted your tool is to what you want to achieve, not what the popular opinion is.

if you're going to use heavy CSS to recreate a table, might as well just use a table, it's simpler and works! with the added benefit that oversized contents don't turn the whole thing into a total fucking trainwreck. (I know the lame old div/float tricks are vulnerable to this, but eh. flexbox probably isn't.)

(also: the idea of "making a completely different layout with CSS only" is nice but it has its inherent limits, no matter how flexible you make it)
Jamie
Posts: 42/69
Rules shouldn't be "rules", they should be "general guidelines" instead.
Rambly
Posts: 2053/2065
divs are situationally a little more useful I feel like (there's times when using a table feels like taking a machete to hedges). Like, when you just want a stylized little box like I've got here in my layout, I feel like divs are still the best at accomplishing that goal.

If you're actually trying to display something in a table format, though, with individual rows? Why not use tables. I get the importance of keeping content and style separate, and you can accomplish some gorgeous stuff with just CSS alone, but sometimes it gets pointless. Like, phpBB using divs for everything despite being displayed in a tabular format -- like, why. Forums are tabular. They'll literally be more coherent without CSS if you use tables. It's not like phpBB's HTML is very well-organized, either...

I guess I understand why these web design principles exist and they can lead to better flexibility and code that scans better, but I don't think they necessarily should be followed dogmatically as hard rules. I generally hate it when rules are taught as unquestionable things you should just follow. I feel like design rules in general are (or should be) meant to achieve certain goals, not to create arbitrary restrictions.
Jamie
Posts: 39/69
Why in the world would someone use a div tag over a table tag other than to needlessly "change" the standard of web design? Just out of curiosity.
Peardian
Posts: 7421/7421
Originally posted by Xkeeper
Also I'll be weird and say that I don't really care if someone uses tables? The modern "design ethos" seems to be framework/auto-generated layouts, and any time I open one of those up in an inspector they're far worse than tables ever were -- often times 20 or so <div>s deep, or even further. Especially in cases where tables would have made perfect sense...

I don't know much about automated web code, but I've been taught to keep content and style separate when building pages. The CSS Zen Garden is a pretty good example of the kinds of benefits this can bring. Accessibility software such as screen readers also comes to mind.
Xkeeper
Posts: 23358/23358
Originally posted by Peardian
I have a confession. My layout uses HTML tables to position everything.

I once tried converting it to divs and CSS and stuff, but I couldn't get it to look exactly the same. I haven't bothered to try again.

Also I'll be weird and say that I don't really care if someone uses tables? The modern "design ethos" seems to be framework/auto-generated layouts, and any time I open one of those up in an inspector they're far worse than tables ever were -- often times 20 or so <div>s deep, or even further. Especially in cases where tables would have made perfect sense...
Xkeeper
Posts: 23358/23358
Originally posted by Tarale
There's never enough time for anything ughhhhhhhh

Increasingly more true every year.


CSS is smelly bum poo

I'm pretty sure the canonical version is this:

CSS
IS
AWESOME
RanAS
Posts: 475/483
CSS is a pain to work with sometimes so I don't blame you (example: vertical-align only working when it wants to).

I still need to learn how display: grid; works. I first saw it while it was still unsupported by most browsers so I never bothered with it. It sounds interesting but it also sounds complicated, I'm having a headache just by looking at that page.

Originally posted by Jamie
I really need to learn how to use CSS properly.

I learned the basics of CSS by just messing with layouts, and then later on by using this tutorial. It's usually just trial and error (or in the case of CSS, it's mostly error) until you get the gist of things.
Peardian
Posts: 7416/7421
I have a confession. My layout uses HTML tables to position everything.

I once tried converting it to divs and CSS and stuff, but I couldn't get it to look exactly the same. I haven't bothered to try again.
Tarale
Posts: 1860/1867
There's never enough time for anything ughhhhhhhh

CSS is smelly bum poo
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Jul - General Chat - Jul Pub



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