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09-22-18 10:26:12 PM
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Jul - Gaming - Unpopular Gaming Opinions
  
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Darkhero
Posts: 16/111
I seem to be in the minority today, but I genuinely enjoy Sonic Adventure as much as I did when I first played it. Sure I don't enjoy all the characters, but the worst ones are given very little game time and the rest of the game more than makes up for it. The technical problems people criticize when they say the game "hasn't aged well" (which to be fair are abundant in the DX version) were also criticized when the game was first released, same with the cutscenes and voice acting.

These days when I find people discussing the game, I usually see disclaimers from people who give it a positive opinion, like "I recognize the game is garbage now but I like it because nostalgia" and "I enjoy this game but I admit it hasn't aged well." Not that there's anything wrong with having an opinion like that, but I don't really see that for other games and you don't need to justify your enjoyment of a game.

Strangely there's no metacritic page for the Dreamcast version, but I'm assuming Hanlon's razor.
Peardian
Posts: 7359/7414
I briefly mentioned Metroid: Other M a while ago, but I want to mention this since Fusion was brought up.

I like the scene where Samus encounters Ridley in Pyrosphere.

I know a lot of people complain about it because "Samus has fought Ridley before!!" and because they don't like the idea of Samus experiencing PTSD. The thing is, the game does a good job (as far as I understand it) of portraying PTSD realistically, and the exact circumstances of it make perfect sense to me. If there is a flaw with the scene, it is perhaps that the context for the scene is too subtle or obscure for most people to get.

When the lava chutes open up and it reveals Ridley huge form, lit from below by a ring of fire, it almost perfectly recreates the atmosphere of when Samus first encountered Ridley as a child, amidst the burning wreckage of a spaceship. It was in that atmosphere that she witnessed the death of her parents and was nearly killed by Ridley. Many fans wouldn't know that, though, because this backstory was only in the official Metroid manga, released between Fusion and Zero Mission. This is very much intentional, because they briefly show Samus as a child.

Even with knowledge of that scene, though, there seems to be a misunderstanding of how PTSD works. Yes, Samus has seen Ridley before, and she didn't freak out. Yes, Samus has even fought Ridley before and she didn't freak out. That's because she's never encountered Ridley in those exact lighting conditions before, in that exact atmosphere before. She isn't reacting to just Ridley. She is reacting to a scenario that very closely resembles a deeply traumatic memory buried in her mind, a specific combination of sights and sounds (and smells?) and maybe even temperature. I may not be any sort of expert on the subject, but I at least know enough to recognize that Samus can experience PTSD related to Ridley in a specific scenario without being completely unable to face him in any context.



(I still haven't figured out the "unfreezable Metroid" scene where Samus has trouble walking, but I imagine it's related to another medical thing I don't know much about...)
Darkhero
Posts: 11/111
As good as Super Mario RPG is, the soundtrack really isn't that memorable.
Saelnaha
Posts: 4/6
Does liking Golden Sun qualify as an unpopular opinion in the local sense, if nothing else? Then again I guess I'm not super into RPGs.

I replayed Dark Dawn recently and decided I still liked it well enough despite it's obvious flaws. (Points of No Return with permanently missable djinn? Really, Camelot?) But even people who liked the GBA games hate on Dark Dawn, so there ya go.
Rena
Posts: 5242/5257
Majora's Mask isn't great. It's too repetitive and feels like just endless shitty minigames.
Lunaria
Posts: 5543/5602
Yeah the native classes certainly aren't the best, switching your wind and water djinns up evenly for those characters make better classes IIRC. Since now the wind mages are less glass cannon and you have more support options. The problem is like, figuring out what classes are good. Most of the mixed classes are weaker then the single element ones so you're discouraged from experimenting!

Hmm, I don't know what games atlus made on the GBA per se, since I don't keep track of what company does what. But I was thinking more traditional JRPG fairs, if I were to recommend just straight up good RPGs on the system then pokemon and final fantasy tactics advance would be pretty high up there (and I think that's a better title than the FE ones, which are also good). Mother 3 is a bit more out there, it's kind of a niche, either you click with it or you don't. Despite having trying both that and earthbound several times I could never really get into them. Though, I would not count Mother 3 for the simple reason that it wasn't released in the west during the GBA's lifetime. (And still sorta haven't).

Riviera is pretty good, but I have no idea how well know it was. It never got a EU release until the PSP. There were some FF ports eventually, but those weren't really new? I mean, disregarding pokemon I think FF1 is probably the RPG I played the most on the GBA. I played golden sun: the lost age a fair bit, mostly since it takes a while to get through it, but I don't think I ever replayed it fully. Where as I think I played through FF1 at least three or four times. I mean, thinking about it, I guess the GBA weren't as RPG starved as I thought. But while I agree that the GS games are kinda bad, I don't think they are as bad as most people seem to write them off as.


Especially when there is stuff like Sword of Mana, which I consider to be way worse game than either of the golden sun games. It's a remake of the first mana game but like, I'm not sure if they didn't fix certain flaws from the original or introduced new ones (since I haven't played the original). But like, the game is just full of plain unfun stuff and a story that makes little sense featuring a main character (or side character) that is completely unlike-able. (Despite the OST having some really good tracks).



...maybe this is getting a bit too far off topic. 'o';
sofi
Posts: 3786/3818
i don't think the native classes of all the characters in Golden Sun are necessarily the best, but i do agree that the difference is pretty negligible. worse yet, there are a lot of redundant weak spells. why should people cast spells in this game when they don't make much of a difference? i think i beat 90% of my battles by using summons or weapons. or weapons that, like, summon.

i haven't played the third one, but i don't think i care to. i'm pretty sure you can get enough good GBA RPG gameplay out of Pokémon, Mario & Luigi, Mother 3, all the Atlus GBA titles and the three Fire Emblem games to not have to think about Golden Sun.
Lunaria
Posts: 5542/5602
I think metroid fusion is a pretty great metroid game and both furthered the series in a few key ways as well as fit the platform it was made for. I'll admit that the game wasn't what I expected it to be when I got it (I kept thinking I would get to go down to SR388), but it certainly was enjoyable to play. And personally, while the game was more linear and railroaded than super, the main path through the game felt a lot like you were doing exploration. There being plenty of secret items and stuff to find along the way also helped with that a lot. I also think combat was a clear upgrade from super metroid, being a lot faster and more responsive.
Lunaria
Posts: 5519/5602
The first two golden sun games were meant to be one, but due to size limitations (and probably budget/time), it was split into two. The second game ended up being vastly bigger than the first though.

Anyway, I think X is referring to the LP that was up on something awful (and maybe still is?), it's certainly entertaining, but I do think the games are not quite as bad as it paints up.

Anyway, if you want a breakdown of the first two games.
The story in the games fails because of: Characters being non-nonsensical, including motives. The first game is weird enough with some aspects, but the second game's story downright undermines the entire premise. If all actors sat down and talked there wouldn't even be a conflict. There is supposedly a really manipulative asshole in the background who set things up like this, but it's not at all explained or clear in the narrative, and his motives seems kind of piss poor.

The game has a really interesting class system..., sort of. But even that fails:
There is a huge amount of classes and the set-up suggests that it tries to be really deep. But the starting classes are for the most part the best, so there is seldom any reason to switch classes. Furthermore, you can't switch a class of a individual unit (easily anyway), so you have to plan out your entire party. But a lot of the hybrid classes are really bad to set-up. Furthermore, the starting base classes are perfectly suitable for the entire games.
It's also a numbers thing, changing a class don't seem all that exciting for anything. You get some different spells but combat usually only boils down to dealing damage anyway. So what you're left with is just, pick if you want AoE or single target, maybe some useless support spells, and what elemental flavor you want on it. (Good luck guessing what enemies are weak to!)

The game also features a summon magic system in two parts buuuuuut:
Type A summons (djinns) are individual and each has a set move that it uses. Great if you want to suddenly unleash a specific type of effect or attack! (some are powerful, like a party res I believe). However, djinns are what you use to set your classes. Each djinn a character has on them gives them stat bonuses, and if it's different from their base element, changes their class. Using a djinn in battle unsets it, meaning, you lose those stat buffs and potentially your class. This already sounds super messy, but it gets even more messy!
Type B summons requires your djinns to have been used, and each summon creature requires an specific amount of djinns of various elements. Once a summon is used, the djinn goes on cooldown for X amount of turns, after which it will automatically attach itself to your character.

Now, if you read all of this, it might sound like the battles gets super complex, but really, that's the opposite of the truth. Nothing really matters, as long as you follow the level curve and don't do anything stupid, you should be able to handle mostly anything. Basically: There is a crap load of complexity here, but it offers no depth. Yikes!


But yeah, these were some of the best RPGs on the GBA!
I have tried to replay them later, but honestly I fall asleep.
Reverend Crush
Posts: 44/52
I need to see that LP. I do remember the story being absolutely bonkers, from what little I remember. Beyond The Beyond's story was also absolute crap (and ended implying that there would be a sequel that we, thankfully, never received.) I haven't played any of the Golden Sun sequels, because they all looked just as boring as the first game.

Camelot did awesome work on the Shining Force games, it's just sad that Golden Sun seems to be the one that stuck around.
Xkeeper
Posts: 23358/23358
It's original quality was that it was a doorstopper in the shape of a GBA cartridge, and so much of the story and plot and progression was completely nonsensical. Nevermind the fact that the series folds in on itself in the second half.

There's a LP of the two games that is very good and does an amazing job at ripping apart all the ways the story is terrible.
Reverend Crush
Posts: 43/52
I'm pretty sure Golden Sun was Camelot's spiritual successor to Beyond The Beyond... except BtB was an absolute train wreck even when compared to Golden Sun. Golden Sun was just incredibly bland and mediocre. I owned the first one, but I never finished it because it felt like just another JRPG with very few original qualities.
Xkeeper
Posts: 23358/23358
Originally posted by sofi
the puzzles ruin Golden Sun

Golden Sun in general is a really bad game with absolutely awful writing. The only reason it was received well at all is because we had basically no quality games of its type on the GBA.
Peardian
Posts: 7345/7414
Originally posted by Xenesis
Hey, I couldn't solve that puzzle without looking it up and actually got really annoyed with the solution simply because it would have never occurred to me.

Trash-eating goats isn't even a thing here. Goats are barely a thing here.

It's just the best example though. Game was impossible for me to play outside of home where I had internet access to look up puzzle solutions.

I almost made a point about this, describing how puzzles based on every-day objects would be more difficult for children who were not familiar with those objects. I decided to leave it out, though, because I assumed you at least have vacuum cleaners there.

But yes, I suppose that is why good localization is important.
Lunaria
Posts: 5511/5602
I'm not sure if that's very unpopular. Despite me liking the golden sun games... they are such a grab bag of different things and they just don't seem to do any of them well. Outside of music I guess, most of the music is fantastic!
sofi
Posts: 3768/3818
the puzzles ruin Golden Sun
Xenesis
Posts: 2458/2530
Hey, I couldn't solve that puzzle without looking it up and actually got really annoyed with the solution simply because it would have never occurred to me.

Trash-eating goats isn't even a thing here. Goats are barely a thing here.

It's just the best example though. Game was impossible for me to play outside of home where I had internet access to look up puzzle solutions.
Peardian
Posts: 7341/7414
Originally posted by Xenesis
I think my big issue with Sticker Star is that the gameplay loop just doesn't work. Like, it literally works against its own interests.

It's supposed to be: use stickers, kill enemies, get a buttload of coins from the level goal, get better stickers. Unfortunately about 70% of the objectives require you just going in/out of the level entrance after getting a doohickey, you never get that shower of coins, so you never get the gameplay loop closed so battles just feel pointless and a drain on your money and it gets incentivised to just avoid combat altogether. Or, you just go and grind for coins/stickers.

The other part of it is that some of the thing puzzles were just...dumb and needed a lot more let. Side-eyes the Goat/Trash puzzle. This ties into the design language of the game being just bad by Nintendo standards, it doesn't actually teach you the mechanics/what's expected very well and that's a problem considering how naturally other Mario RPGs can be picked up.

I think Paper Mario SS can basically be described as one of the most half-baked games Nintendo has released in recent years as a retail title.

Yes, Sticker Star certainly has its flaws. The purpose of the combat is really baffling to me. Perhaps they wanted to make it so that players who didn't want to do combat could avoid it? At least the issue was addressed in Color Splash by granting Hammer Scraps.

I won't defend all of the puzzles in Sticker Star, but I found the garbage dump puzzle you mentioned to be amusing and clever. As far as I'm aware, the most obvious solution for that puzzle would be the one of the vacuum cleaner things, but the goat serves as a "thinking out of the box" solution for people who are familiar with the eating habits of goats.

I suppose one of the faults in the design philosophy of designing puzzle solutions based on everyday objects is that kids who aren't familiar with the object won't have a good idea of the types of problems that it can solve. Sure, using the thing sticker in battle would give a clue as to what the object is/does, but then that requires you to return to the level and get the thing again if you find out that you need it. (Another issue that Color Splash improved on.)
Xenesis
Posts: 2456/2530
I think my big issue with Sticker Star is that the gameplay loop just doesn't work. Like, it literally works against its own interests.

It's supposed to be: use stickers, kill enemies, get a buttload of coins from the level goal, get better stickers. Unfortunately about 70% of the objectives require you just going in/out of the level entrance after getting a doohickey, you never get that shower of coins, so you never get the gameplay loop closed so battles just feel pointless and a drain on your money and it gets incentivised to just avoid combat altogether. Or, you just go and grind for coins/stickers.

The other part of it is that some of the thing puzzles were just...dumb and needed a lot more let. Side-eyes the Goat/Trash puzzle. This ties into the design language of the game being just bad by Nintendo standards, it doesn't actually teach you the mechanics/what's expected very well and that's a problem considering how naturally other Mario RPGs can be picked up.

I think Paper Mario SS can basically be described as one of the most half-baked games Nintendo has released in recent years as a retail title.
Peardian
Posts: 7340/7414
Paper Mario: Sticker Star and Paper Mario: Color Splash have a lot of creativity put into them, despite what the most vocal fans seem to think. A lot of people post the same "everyone is Toads, they all look the same" complaint and use it to say that the games have no creativity or originality. What those people don't seem to realize is that a game can be creative mechanically without having an abundance of novel character designs. Paper Mario games don't need ten different species of NPC characters to be good, because Paper Mario is not a game about a deep/complex narrative or world-building, it is about adventure.

If you look at the individual plots of the chapters in the first two Paper Mario games, and I mean really analyze them, you'll see there isn't much there. Some of the chapters in Paper Mario 64 are just sequences of unrelated events that Mario encounters on his way to his destination.

Another complaint I see thrown around is that Shigeru Miyamoto became the Fun Police and forced them to only use Toads, which then casts Miyamoto as some sort of overly restrictive mentor. Yes, Miyamoto did ask the team to only use existing Mario characters for the game, but the developers were the ones that chose to use Toads. (Toad is Miyamoto's least favorite Mario character.) Miyamoto suggested this so that they could focus on developing new and interesting ideas, rather than just rehashing The Thousand-Year Door with new locations and new characters. If you look at Paper Mario fanart on the internet, you can see a trend that explains why a lot of people complain: almost all of the fanart is just TYD with new locations and characters. These people don't want new or interesting gameplay mechanics, they want more of the same. They just want more Mario OCs and more world-building.

I know that the new Paper Mario games have their flaws, and that the original games had a nice battle engine, but I really think we're better off now than if the developers had gone with more of the same. I can easily see the original planned vision of Sticker Star getting a similar or lower score than it did (~75% average) for being too similar to the previous games.

And this is not even touching the regional differences between how the Paper Mario series is marketed, but I digress.



In summary, I think the Paper Mario games are not about strong narratives and that the people who complain the most about the direction of the series want something different out of the games than the type of experience they have always been designed to give.
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Jul - Gaming - Unpopular Gaming Opinions



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